THERMAL SCOPE SIDE BY SIDE COMPARISON.
- Thread starter TEXASLAWMAN
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wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
Right, regarding optics planet (or other large vendor) ... there are cases where you can get a really good deal, like being members of certain "clubs" and such .. because they do generally get deeper "wholesale" pricing that the smaller guys ... but generally the smaller vendors are hungrier and will go well below MAP ... especially if you say the magic words ... "if can sell me X item for Y price ... I will send you the money today" ... 
... and the larger guys are NOT as susceptible to such negotiations ... unless you are buying a larger chunk of stuff. But in general I would get on the phone regardless if I was spending this type of money ... and ideally talk to three different vendors before deciding which vendor to go with. You will learn a lot from doing that ... and will get the best price as well.
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As to thermal clip ons versus dedicated scope ... I am switching from Apollo 42mm 336(60) to Zeus 75mm 640(30) ... and the Zeus is lighter than the combo of day scope and apollo ... and the image of the optical 3x and 640 is better as well ... I was able to get 0.5 MOA groups last night at 500yds with the Zeus and I never even tried to go beyond 300yds with the Apollo 1x. I ran the Apollo as a 1x scope using the internal reticle when I hunted with TLM ... and the "lightness" factor was thus off the table. But there was no internal 3x like the Zeus has. BUT ... the Zeus "reticles" will be harder to learn to hold with ... and for some bullets at 300yds or more we might need to hold for wind, even if we click up for elevation. So the clipon thermal allows one to use the day scope reticle and for longer distances, that might be useful.
If you would use several of your rifles for night shooting, then a clipon allows you to move the thermal around without having to remove all the day scopes and rezero both the night scope and the day scopes each day/night. You can leave the day scopes untouched. So that is an advantage for the clipon as well. However, if you would mount the Zeus on one rifle and leave it there, then no advantage for clipon.
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I'm not sure about the i2 clipons ... they might not have the same issue as the thermal with limiting the optical image. With the thermals you are looking at a screen inside the unit. With the i2 units you are actually looking through the unit at the real world. So I think what we've said about clipon image limitations applies to thermals but not sure it applies to i2. Maybe some optics experts can amplify this aspect. I shoot often out to 500-600yds on my land with COLR on most of my rifles and don't notice any fuzziness kicking in until the day scope magnification exceeds 12x or it is really dark and there is a lot of "scinillation" (sp?) ... in which case ... if desired ... I crank down on the magnification. I do run the COLR in front of scopes at up to 18x magnification and then I think the image is like using the digital zooms on the apollo and zeus ... but up to 12x it seems different ... optically still clear.
... and the larger guys are NOT as susceptible to such negotiations ... unless you are buying a larger chunk of stuff. But in general I would get on the phone regardless if I was spending this type of money ... and ideally talk to three different vendors before deciding which vendor to go with. You will learn a lot from doing that ... and will get the best price as well.==
As to thermal clip ons versus dedicated scope ... I am switching from Apollo 42mm 336(60) to Zeus 75mm 640(30) ... and the Zeus is lighter than the combo of day scope and apollo ... and the image of the optical 3x and 640 is better as well ... I was able to get 0.5 MOA groups last night at 500yds with the Zeus and I never even tried to go beyond 300yds with the Apollo 1x. I ran the Apollo as a 1x scope using the internal reticle when I hunted with TLM ... and the "lightness" factor was thus off the table. But there was no internal 3x like the Zeus has. BUT ... the Zeus "reticles" will be harder to learn to hold with ... and for some bullets at 300yds or more we might need to hold for wind, even if we click up for elevation. So the clipon thermal allows one to use the day scope reticle and for longer distances, that might be useful.
If you would use several of your rifles for night shooting, then a clipon allows you to move the thermal around without having to remove all the day scopes and rezero both the night scope and the day scopes each day/night. You can leave the day scopes untouched. So that is an advantage for the clipon as well. However, if you would mount the Zeus on one rifle and leave it there, then no advantage for clipon.
==
I'm not sure about the i2 clipons ... they might not have the same issue as the thermal with limiting the optical image. With the thermals you are looking at a screen inside the unit. With the i2 units you are actually looking through the unit at the real world. So I think what we've said about clipon image limitations applies to thermals but not sure it applies to i2. Maybe some optics experts can amplify this aspect. I shoot often out to 500-600yds on my land with COLR on most of my rifles and don't notice any fuzziness kicking in until the day scope magnification exceeds 12x or it is really dark and there is a lot of "scinillation" (sp?) ... in which case ... if desired ... I crank down on the magnification. I do run the COLR in front of scopes at up to 18x magnification and then I think the image is like using the digital zooms on the apollo and zeus ... but up to 12x it seems different ... optically still clear.
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Louis Richards
LSB Member
Hmmmm. Come to think of it, how DO you zero in this scope on a target? Heat it up with a blow dryer
Louis Richards
LSB Member
And I'm not sure about someone being able to beat that price, even the vendors here. I've looked, I've searched, I've called. $5800 for a thermal scope that list at $7995, even though we all know suggested list can be ignored, is still a deep discount!
That was the same price that most of the older, less capability Zeus's were going for.
That was the same price that most of the older, less capability Zeus's were going for.
Armasight Zeus 640 3-24x75 (30hz) Thermal Imaging Weapon Sight, FLIR Tau 2 - 640x512 (17 micron) 30hz Core, 75mm Lens 640x512
Got a great deal on this guys anyone else is interested, it will be here on Friday.
$6495. But optic planet has 10% off scope for $650. So $5880. Trust me when I tell you I have been researching prices on the scope for a couple weeks it's not ever going to get any cheaper again!!!
So basically, 12 X is about as good as it gets to retain reasonable clarity? After that, I get so distorted is not is usable? I can live with that
Something still confuses me is why they have 1x, 2X, 4x and 8x? What exactly is 1x useful for? Isn't 1X just basically a regular 3x optical? Shouldn't it start off with 2X?
you'd be surprised at some of the vendors on here. At least one of them has beat that price. You just have to ask.
So basically, 12 X is about as good as it gets to retain reasonable clarity? After that, I get so distorted is not is usable? I can live with that
Something still confuses me is why they have 1x, 2X, 4x and 8x? What exactly is 1x useful for? Isn't 1X just basically a regular 3x optical? Shouldn't it start off with 2X?[/QUOTE]
It starts off at 3, 2X is 6, 4X is 12 ect.
BTW I believe the vendors here could have beat or matched that price and you have the support group that comes with them being on the forum.
Something still confuses me is why they have 1x, 2X, 4x and 8x? What exactly is 1x useful for? Isn't 1X just basically a regular 3x optical? Shouldn't it start off with 2X?[/QUOTE]
It starts off at 3, 2X is 6, 4X is 12 ect.
BTW I believe the vendors here could have beat or matched that price and you have the support group that comes with them being on the forum.
Ratdog68
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Fear not, I'm certain that someone from Optics Planet will chime in any moment now.Hmmmm. Come to think of it, how DO you zero in this scope on a target? Heat it up with a blow dryer
Daytime I use tin foil, then a hand warmer or something frozen will work day or night. If you had bought from a vendor here they would have explained all that to you for ease of operation...Not trying to be hard on you for buying from OP but next time please give the vendors here a chance for your business, their price and customer service especially are far superior to the big online or box stores..
So basically, 12 X is about as good as it gets to retain reasonable clarity? After that, I get so distorted is not is usable? I can live with that
Something still confuses me is why they have 1x, 2X, 4x and 8x? What exactly is 1x useful for? Isn't 1X just basically a regular 3x optical? Shouldn't it start off with 2X?
It starts off at 3, 2X is 6, 4X is 12 ect.
BTW I believe the vendors here could have beat or matched that price and you have the support group that comes with them being on the forum.[/QUOTE]
This drives me nuts. I know they do it to standardize their firmware in the scopes, but I don't think it would be a problem to show 6x as the actual digital magnification on a 3x scope you just zoomed to what they display as "2x." You have to do math, it isn't high math, but you have to do math.
Pulsar doesn't do this. They just show the actual level of magnification. So if it reads 1.8x through the scope, then that is 1.8x magnification, NOT 1.8 times the native magnification.
I bought my ATN ThOR from Optics Planet over a year ago now. I called them and asked for pricing on a certain model. The customer service person quoted me a price.
About 15 minutes later I got a call from a sales rep and he asked me if I was considering a ATN. I stated that I was and the model I was interested in. He immediately told me that he could give me $1000. off the price that the customer service person had quoted me. I told him that I would get back to him. He was like a car salesman in that he didn't want to let me off the phone.
I thought it over for about an hour then called back and asked for him by name. I asked if for that same discount could I get an upgraded model. He agreed. So I ended up getting about $1085. off the model that I chose. This,over the Optics Planet internet advertised price.
I get thick dull black poster paper from Wal Mart. I put a small piece of aluminum duc tape(about 1.5"X1.5")on it. I put it so that the sun shines directly on it. After about 15 or 20 minutes there is a heat differential enough for the tape to glow brightly. I ended up using a red hot setting. The tape will not glow on black hot(with my unit). If you have a thermal with different heat settings,you have to experiment with which one has the best resolution.
AND ------ with my thermal anything over 6X is just about completely unusable. It is ok for detection but not for targeting. --- pruhdlr
About 15 minutes later I got a call from a sales rep and he asked me if I was considering a ATN. I stated that I was and the model I was interested in. He immediately told me that he could give me $1000. off the price that the customer service person had quoted me. I told him that I would get back to him. He was like a car salesman in that he didn't want to let me off the phone.
I thought it over for about an hour then called back and asked for him by name. I asked if for that same discount could I get an upgraded model. He agreed. So I ended up getting about $1085. off the model that I chose. This,over the Optics Planet internet advertised price.
I get thick dull black poster paper from Wal Mart. I put a small piece of aluminum duc tape(about 1.5"X1.5")on it. I put it so that the sun shines directly on it. After about 15 or 20 minutes there is a heat differential enough for the tape to glow brightly. I ended up using a red hot setting. The tape will not glow on black hot(with my unit). If you have a thermal with different heat settings,you have to experiment with which one has the best resolution.
AND ------ with my thermal anything over 6X is just about completely unusable. It is ok for detection but not for targeting. --- pruhdlr
Louis Richards
LSB Member
Ummmm (clears throat). First of all, anyone should be able to tell that I am a new member and have no experience with this forum whatsoever. I'm a member of dozens of forums, probably more, and they all have vendors. Having a vendor doesn't mean that you're going to get a great price on any product necessarily.
So when I posted my first post actually describing and showing the scope that I was THINKING of purchasing, nobody chimed in, nor were there any vendors anywhere saying that they they could offer me a better price. So I ask, why didn't somebody say something then? It was very clear that I was on the verge of purchasing the scope and I didn't see any vendors kick in and offer any information... nor members of this forum... Then when I actually purchased the item that I listed in bold print that I was thinking of purchasing, everyone starts chiming in on how I could've got a better price through vendor? The phrase "a day late and a dollar short" sure does come to mind!
Second of all, not to be someone to want to get an argument started, but anyone who cares about their own product is going to chime in if I'm having problems or questions with it. I'm having issues or questions with a Zeus scope that I purchased, it would not be in the best interest of any vendor not to try to correct those issues and all problems because it could affect the purchase of that scope by other members. Trust me, if I'm having issues and a vendor doesn't chime in because I didn't purchase it from him, that's NOT a vendor I would have wanted to purchase something from to begin with.
People go on Amazon all the time speaking of issues they are having and yes, the minute they do, vendors are sure to post a response because they understand how important it is for people to be happy with the products they are trying to sell.
And honestly, the couple of y'all that aren't answering my questions because I didn't buy from a vendor on this site? Thats down right crappy. Since when does a member of a forum have to purchase products from a vendor on the forum or they won't get any questions answered? That's not the purpose of a forum, to only promote and buy products that vendors are a member of. That's called a website or advertising. That's not what a forum is. Its an outlet for other members to talk to other members about other things. I'm sure it will take me all of 15 seconds to Google how to site in a thermal scope and I will get my answers from others that arent being quite as particular about where I purchased my scope from. However, I did not have to, because a couple of nice gentleman above were very clear in how to do this and I appreciated the information very much. To the other people who seemed a bit more interested in where I purchased it from and not offering that information, I think you need to grow up a little bit.
Armasight should have a great interest in assisting anyone who purchased any one of their products, regardless of where they were purchased at. If any vendor had at any moment offered me a deal I would've opened up talks. But since that never took place, I did my own thing. So don't blame me, blame the vendors who weren't being more attentive to what took place on the forum they are member of, especially monitoring an article specific to a comparison of thermal sights, which is sure to spark interest in the purchase there of
And this I will tell you in ending, you have a problem with the scope, even if used for an entire month and it was beat to hell, I can return it to Amazon or Optics planet and get a refund no questions asked. I'm not too sure that would be the case for the vendor.
So when I posted my first post actually describing and showing the scope that I was THINKING of purchasing, nobody chimed in, nor were there any vendors anywhere saying that they they could offer me a better price. So I ask, why didn't somebody say something then? It was very clear that I was on the verge of purchasing the scope and I didn't see any vendors kick in and offer any information... nor members of this forum... Then when I actually purchased the item that I listed in bold print that I was thinking of purchasing, everyone starts chiming in on how I could've got a better price through vendor? The phrase "a day late and a dollar short" sure does come to mind!
Second of all, not to be someone to want to get an argument started, but anyone who cares about their own product is going to chime in if I'm having problems or questions with it. I'm having issues or questions with a Zeus scope that I purchased, it would not be in the best interest of any vendor not to try to correct those issues and all problems because it could affect the purchase of that scope by other members. Trust me, if I'm having issues and a vendor doesn't chime in because I didn't purchase it from him, that's NOT a vendor I would have wanted to purchase something from to begin with.
People go on Amazon all the time speaking of issues they are having and yes, the minute they do, vendors are sure to post a response because they understand how important it is for people to be happy with the products they are trying to sell.
And honestly, the couple of y'all that aren't answering my questions because I didn't buy from a vendor on this site? Thats down right crappy. Since when does a member of a forum have to purchase products from a vendor on the forum or they won't get any questions answered? That's not the purpose of a forum, to only promote and buy products that vendors are a member of. That's called a website or advertising. That's not what a forum is. Its an outlet for other members to talk to other members about other things. I'm sure it will take me all of 15 seconds to Google how to site in a thermal scope and I will get my answers from others that arent being quite as particular about where I purchased my scope from. However, I did not have to, because a couple of nice gentleman above were very clear in how to do this and I appreciated the information very much. To the other people who seemed a bit more interested in where I purchased it from and not offering that information, I think you need to grow up a little bit.
Armasight should have a great interest in assisting anyone who purchased any one of their products, regardless of where they were purchased at. If any vendor had at any moment offered me a deal I would've opened up talks. But since that never took place, I did my own thing. So don't blame me, blame the vendors who weren't being more attentive to what took place on the forum they are member of, especially monitoring an article specific to a comparison of thermal sights, which is sure to spark interest in the purchase there of
And this I will tell you in ending, you have a problem with the scope, even if used for an entire month and it was beat to hell, I can return it to Amazon or Optics planet and get a refund no questions asked. I'm not too sure that would be the case for the vendor.
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Ratdog68
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I didn't get into the particulars of your inquiry, simply because I do not own/use those products. I do, however, see many times, in which sponsoring vendors get involved in troubleshooting for people that did not give them a shot at a sale. I've seen sponsoring vendors offer to clean/service an optic someone bought used at a LGS. As a result, I get a little protective of good sponsoring vendors. I hope you get it figured out.
Louis Richards
LSB Member
Daryl Litch? That's a horrible story and unbelievable to be honest. That was exactly a fear of mine with thermal imaging for many many years. Spending thousands upon thousands of dollars on the scope just to have it fail a year out and be stuck with it. I have stop myself from buying them for many years based upon your story and many others that I read. I still have this fear deep down inside.
But Armsite does seem to be a different company and I feel pretty secure in knowing that at least I have a 3 warranty and 10 year warranty that's good enough for me so far. Only actual time will tell that works out to be what it should be if I have problems with the unit and send it in. Luckily we live in a new social age where being unsatisfied with something and get the manufacturers attention by posting it everywhere and anywhere about your bad experience.
But Armsite does seem to be a different company and I feel pretty secure in knowing that at least I have a 3 warranty and 10 year warranty that's good enough for me so far. Only actual time will tell that works out to be what it should be if I have problems with the unit and send it in. Luckily we live in a new social age where being unsatisfied with something and get the manufacturers attention by posting it everywhere and anywhere about your bad experience.
Louis Richards
LSB Member
No harm, no foul rat dog. I would've loved for a vendor to have contacted me but as I say, being a member of many forums there are hundreds of vendors offering hundreds of products. It's not intuitive to contact the vendor directly asked them they can possibly get you a good price.
Also and I'm going by memory, but I believe it was this article on the first couple of pages where somebody asked if they could get a group discount. It was answered some what sarcastically, saying yeah, a group of one or something like that. I don't feel like going back and rereading this whole article again, but somebody already asked about a discount it was already basically said NO.
Also and I'm going by memory, but I believe it was this article on the first couple of pages where somebody asked if they could get a group discount. It was answered some what sarcastically, saying yeah, a group of one or something like that. I don't feel like going back and rereading this whole article again, but somebody already asked about a discount it was already basically said NO.
Louis Richards
LSB Member
I went back and looked and was on page 2. Somebody asked if they could get a group discount. The response was " yes, you can buy anyone of these scopes for the group."
So if there were no group discounts available, surely, there were no individual discounts available either. I took that to mean that no, there were no discounts available.
Actually I went back and looked at when I posted I was going to buy versus when I bought. I didn't give them a whole of the time. But again, I honestly wasn't looking to give anyone any time to do anything. I was just wanting to learn more about thermal imaging and never really gave it a second thought that a vendor could possibly save me money. Still, I'm not too upset. I know enough to know I got a pretty damn good price on this thing at $5800. They weren't going to beat it by too much more I promise you that's already bottom line
So if there were no group discounts available, surely, there were no individual discounts available either. I took that to mean that no, there were no discounts available.
Actually I went back and looked at when I posted I was going to buy versus when I bought. I didn't give them a whole of the time. But again, I honestly wasn't looking to give anyone any time to do anything. I was just wanting to learn more about thermal imaging and never really gave it a second thought that a vendor could possibly save me money. Still, I'm not too upset. I know enough to know I got a pretty damn good price on this thing at $5800. They weren't going to beat it by too much more I promise you that's already bottom line
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Louis the bottom line is this is a unique forum and you would have saved $ and had local support had you taken the initiative before spending your $, it is not the Vendors responsibility to bug you to buy a unit from them. You really did not post much before announcing your buy so 1 or 2 posts could have easily been overlooked.
Since you opted for OP to buy from it is them you have to go to first to get relief, then they will send back to Armasight or have you send it in directly. A local vendor does not want to step inbetween you and OP as they are your first remedy and Armasight is the repair location for them...it is not that they would not want to help you but they could mess it up between you and OP. If they see a post of yours asking a question they will certainly answer and be glad to help you because that is the way they do business..
Since you opted for OP to buy from it is them you have to go to first to get relief, then they will send back to Armasight or have you send it in directly. A local vendor does not want to step inbetween you and OP as they are your first remedy and Armasight is the repair location for them...it is not that they would not want to help you but they could mess it up between you and OP. If they see a post of yours asking a question they will certainly answer and be glad to help you because that is the way they do business..
Ratdog68
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I don't find the inquiry that was replied to... but if the inquiry came from Hunt Tx Hogs where Brian replied to him with your reference... that was between two end users, neither of which are (as far as I know) sponsoring vendors of this equipment. So the "no" you reference did not come from a vendor.
I went back and looked and was on page 2. Somebody asked if they could get a group discount. The response was " yes, you can buy anyone of these scopes for the group."
So if there were no group discounts available, surely, there were no individual discounts available either. I took that to mean that no, there were no discounts available. -- Louis Richards said
I am afraid you missed some key points. You are misquoting me. The statement was more than 1 year ago. I was making a joke to Ben. I do not speak for all of the vendors on the forum. In fact, I don't actually speak for any vendors, though I am now affiliated with ******************* and at the time was affiliated with Pulsar.
The quote was about a "group buy" and not a "group discount." The idea behind group buys is that a group organizes together to buy in a volume or to spend in a volume such that a manufacturer or vendor will cut the price. This type of deal is dependent on the group meeting a specified minimal quota to achieve a certain level of discount that is usually more than could be achieved in trying to attain an individual discount. It is basically volume pricing.
That nobody showed any interest (other than Ben) does not mean vendors would not entertain a group buy. It also does not mean, for any reason, that individual discounts cannot be had. The two are completely unrelated.
So if there were no group discounts available, surely, there were no individual discounts available either. I took that to mean that no, there were no discounts available. -- Louis Richards said
I am afraid you missed some key points. You are misquoting me. The statement was more than 1 year ago. I was making a joke to Ben. I do not speak for all of the vendors on the forum. In fact, I don't actually speak for any vendors, though I am now affiliated with ******************* and at the time was affiliated with Pulsar.
The quote was about a "group buy" and not a "group discount." The idea behind group buys is that a group organizes together to buy in a volume or to spend in a volume such that a manufacturer or vendor will cut the price. This type of deal is dependent on the group meeting a specified minimal quota to achieve a certain level of discount that is usually more than could be achieved in trying to attain an individual discount. It is basically volume pricing.
That nobody showed any interest (other than Ben) does not mean vendors would not entertain a group buy. It also does not mean, for any reason, that individual discounts cannot be had. The two are completely unrelated.
Louis Richards
LSB Member
Frank, I am not sure what you're talking about? I'm not having any problems with the scope, in fact I haven't even gotten in the mail yet it comes tomorrow. Maybe you're misunderstanding what these post about ?