THERMAL SCOPE SIDE BY SIDE COMPARISON.

[Hard_ware]

Nice!
Show off the latest thermal toys.
It just makes me want to spend more $$$$$ when I see better performance.
Need to unload a ls64 and a ps24 before getting more toys

 

[TEXASLAWMAN]

Nice!
Show off the latest thermal toys.
It just makes me want to spend more $$$$$ when I see better performance.
Need to unload a ls64 and a ps24 before getting more toys

I would like to do thermal and Nv dont know if there is enough time but I think we learned enough last time to make this one go a little smoother.

 

[FrankT]

I think to be through the NV and thermal reviews/comparison need to be separate unless more time and gear is taken to do it.

 

[Daryl licht]

This FLIR was one of their fixed focus units which means there was no objective focus. Based on my use of this scope, my FLIR PS32 monocular, and testing of another fixed focus scope previously, the fixed focus concept is a mixed bag. What it means is that at long or short range (and what is long range is relative to the magnification and resolution), the image quality is such that you are going to be able to make out what is there fairly well, but the image isn't going to be sharp at any distance. You don't have to make an adjustments to see your target, but you can't make any actual focus adjustments to see your target better.

One other feature about the FLIR that is good is that it auto NUCs the image. That means that the image is automatically recalibrated as needed by the scope. The down side to this process is that it happens as necessary and not necessarily when desired by the user. After the unit has warmed up, this happens infrequently, every few minutes, and disrupts (freezes) the image for a fraction of a second.

The FLIR runs on an internal rechargeable lithium ion battery that cannot be removed by the user. I do not find this to be a problem, though many users do. I don't find this to be a problem because my rifle scope is not what I have turned on during most of my hunts, but I use another optic for the majority of time. If you don't have the benefit of the second optic and need to have the scope on continually during the hunt (for example, you are involved in a spot and stalk hunt), then you are most definite limited by the battery life. You can run the unit via an external power supply (not included with original unit), but that involves having wire run into the scope.

ATN THOR-240, 240x180 1x optical with up to 4x digital zoom ~$3500

As with the THOR, this is a short range thermal scope. You can see further than short range, but for hunting purposes, this is not an ideal scope for use beyond 100 yards. The lower optical resolution makes recognition and identification of specific targets more difficult. However, given the lower resolution and idea that this is a short range scope, it is compact and the image is nice for what it has to offer. The crosshairs and display are easy to see.

The housing is rock solid aluminum construction, actually fairly heavy for the tiny size, but give the user a sense of solid construction.

I know folks are big fans of ATN scopes and I am not one of them. I do recognize the fact that there are some outstanding videos produced by THOR rifle scopes. A good friend of mine loves his THOR and will likely disagree with much of the following.

With the test scope and a previously THOR I had for a couple of days, I found the buttons were recessed too far in the unit, making them difficult to press sufficiently to activate. That the buttons are recessed is a good thing because it keeps them from being inadvertently depressed, but I think the combination of how far they are recessed and the depth to which they need to be pressed is just too much. So for a person with large man hands or a person with smaller hands wearing gloves, these buttons are not going to be very easy to use.

The THOR does not auto-NUC. That means that when the sensor starts to get overwhelmed and the image degrades, the user has to manually press buttons to cause the unit to NUC and this must be done with the lens covered. This is a significant downside in my opinion. To compound matters, the directions provided with the scope stated that to NUC the unit, you have to press the MENU button from the correct display screen and then MENU again, and then the DOWN arrow. The directions were WRONG. Instead of the DOWN arrow, it is the RIGHT arrow.

Undoubtedly, all of the zero functions, reticle selections, and color palates options can be learned with experience, but I did not find the menu operation to be intuitive. The same goes for the shortcuts. You need to be a little smarter to use this product than the FLIR.

Other Considerations -

Startup is just a few seconds – quick.

The ATN THOR runs on 3 CR123a batteries. I believe it can run on less than 3 but will not run as long. On the unit we received, the threading on the battery compartment was full of filings from the cutting of the threads or milling of the battery compartment which meant that screwing down the battery door felt like twisting through sandpaper. Even after being wiped out, the damage remained with a very gritty feel. The product should not have been assembled with the filings still in the threads.

No video cable was provided and so we have no video for this unit.

The real review will be the customer service you get after you've spent your hard earned money. My personal opinions after having bought units from FLIR, Atn, and Armasight is as follows;

Flir=F as I said before 700 dollars for a 3 dollar piece of plastic battery holder. If anybody wants pictures of the unit and battery holder in question let me know and I'll post them...but somewhere on here I think dax already has. This thermal cost 10,000 + dollars. Talked to them at the 2015 shot show and they could've cared less. I have those exchanges documented and I'll post them if anyone is interested.

ATN=F I spent 10,000 on one of their "military" grade thor units and then it just went black...no picture. I sent it back to be repaired at my own cost and was told it couldn't be as they had no spare parts. Personally this stunned me. 2 years old and I couldn't buy a part for it no matter how much I was willing to spend. After making comments on the Internet they contacted me and said they would send me another scope since they didn't have parts. What a great deal I thought here's finally a company that stands behind their product...wrong. They sent me one alright but it was in worse shape than the one I had sent them, blurred picture, wrong screws stripped into the existing holes, etc. A veritable hanger queen for those of you who've ever been in the Air Force. Once again I went to their booth at the 2015 shot show and I couldn't even get anyone to talk to me. I'll post more of anyone cares.

Armasight=B so far none of the scopes I've bought from them have worked as advertised, and they have rarely told me the truth about anything but they will try to fix the problem. Their warrantee is amazing, and the way they stand behind their products is unbelievable. Dimitri is the shiny spot in the whole thermal industry as far as I'm concerned as he's the only CEO to personnally return calls and try to work with his customers. The new pro line of which I've bought around 30,000 dollars worth has been headache after headache but six months down the road they have fixed 99% of the issues I was concerned with. The through the scope rangefinder is simply stunning now that it's working properly and Armasight is the only company I know of that offers it. If they offered a splitter so you could use the rangefinder and the video recorder at the same time I'd post movies of hogs being killed at ranges previously thought insane. Dimitri thanks

 

[Ncorry]

Hey TexasLawman,
Just wanted to say thank you again for posting the video of shooting the alpha female first. Had the opportunity to do so this weekend on the maiden hunt for two Armasight Zeus 6520 3x scopes. Once the big girl was down, we took our time. The 15 or 20 60lb piggies all grouped back up and just held still instead of running off into the woods that were 30 yards away from them. Only time in my life I ran out of bullets hunting things that weren't birds.

 

[TEXASLAWMAN]

Hey TexasLawman,
Just wanted to say thank you again for posting the video of shooting the alpha female first. Had the opportunity to do so this weekend on the maiden hunt for two Armasight Zeus 6520 3x scopes. Once the big girl was down, we took our time. The 15 or 20 60lb piggies all grouped back up and just held still instead of running off into the woods that were 30 yards away from them. Only time in my life I ran out of bullets hunting things that weren't birds.

Ha! Now you know why I carry extra mags! Ran out of ammo once never again!

 

[Hard_ware]

I always carry extra mags, when hogs start running the bullets fly. 20-30 hogs running in open fields is a good reason to let the bullets fly .
Yrs back when I was just getting into NV. I was using a cascade gen1 tube that started the hogs demise. After jumping a sounder and shooting 7, one got up and started limping off. One of the farmers friends and his farmhand took off after the hog. One had an ar15 the other a single shot. They chased the hog 250yds bang bang bang bang bang, then a single bang. Same thing again bang bang bang bang bang then a single shot. This when on for several minutes till all was quiet, I told the farmer they probably ran out of ammo. Well when they walked back to the truck, they didn't have the hog and they said they ran out of bullets. After that I made sure to always carry spare mags.

 

[Louis Richards]

Wow, what a great review. I don't know as I read about some people bickering maybe because you are old pros. Take it from a newbie who's just now starting to look in to thermal, this is probably the most comprehensive review that I have read thus far. For somebody who doesn't know anything about thermal imaging, I have already read this review 20 times and this has become my Bible. I only wish the IR Hunter I've been available as I have been looking at that closely lately. Mainly because it's touted as a clip on.

With that said, I sit here pondering certain questions. Hopefully you can help.

Not much was mentioned about clip ons, i.e. the advantages and or disadvantages. Can you tell me if the clip on is supposed to be an advantage because when mounted in front of say a 3 to 12 optical zoom, youre getting the optical zoom clarity a digital does zoom not provide? To go further and say that mounting a clip on in front of an optical zoom would be equal to having a thermal imaging device that had its own optical zoom vs digital?

Auto NUC has got me really worried as the first reviewer noted. But I could not ascertain at least not clearly if the Zeus models had auto or manual NUC by the reviews. Looking at Amazon, Zeus has 500 specifications to look at but does not mention if it has a manual or auto NUC and that makes me think they are being a bit deceiving.

I'm very interested in the Zeus and I'm very interested in a 2X optical because close up field of view is everything for me Seeing as most of my usage would be for a hypothetical tactical situation, I have learned by using night vision devices that the higher the X the more useless it is for me. I have a 6X night vision device and I swear it's just does nothing for me at close up ranges. Great for 200 yards out, but for somebody 20 feet away which is what I would think most tactical situations would be, it's not for me. I hope I'm thinking this out clearly and any input would be great. In short, for tactical, the lower the X the better. For hog hunters shooting over 100 yards, the higher the x the better?

I'm looking very closely at below. If it had a 2x I would be even happier. But the 2 x is only offered in a 42 mm lens. So this seems to cover the basics. The 75 mm lens which one I understand can only be a plus? The low 3 X magnification which should give me a wider field of you for close-up. And the 60 HZ which again can only be a positive as it's refreshing faster? I guess what I'm asking is I rather have the 2X but just how much am I trading off for the 42 versus 75 lens? Because I have never even looked at one of these just how important is that in reality? Is all of that correct? And all of this was learned by your wonderful review thank you again!

And again, do these have auto NUC and clip ons are my first choice assuming the optical X is achieved with the clip ons.

Armasight Zeus 640 3-24x75 (60 Hz) Thermal Imaging Weapon Sight, FLIR Tau 2 - 640x512 (17 micron) 60Hz Core, 75mm Lens

 

[Brian Shaffer]

Louis, hello and welcome! The Zeus scopes do have auto NUC. I don't know the trigger for causing the NUC to occur (timed or some sort of firmware determination), but under poor thermal conditions, I find myself engaging the semi-auto NUC (which means I push the 2 buttons simultaneously to make the NUC happen). So the Zeus will do it on its own, but you can initiate NUCing if you think it is needed as well. Also, before the auto NUC occurs, say you are on a target and about to shoot. You can press a button to stop the auto NUC from potentially messing with your shot. I have only needed that a couple of times, but it is a nice option to have.

There is a Zeus 2 that is a 2x unit. I have one. I got it as a spare/backup. Unless you plan on only short range work, I would suggest staying with the 3x. I would also suggest staying with 30 hz unless you have a lot of high speed action going on. 60hz is fine, especially for high speed stuff (maybe you are shooting from helicopters and such?), but it will also consume battery power quicker. You can also go with external batteries, adding some weight and bulk, but extending the use life still getting 60hz without worrying about battery drain.

Somebody else will need to discuss the clip-ons in detail as I have very little experience with them.

 

[Louis Richards]

Thank you so much for a fast response, I never dreamed...

Excited to hear about the 60 versus 30, as they are so much cheaper and will take your advice with the 3X. 75 vs 42 lens? Thoughts on that?

 

[TEXASLAWMAN]

Brian answered most of your questions already. For tye lense I would get the biggest lense you can afford Bigger better lense let more information in as a comparison think of the bigger lense as high speed Internet vs 56k same core computer but mere info coming in faster.

As for clip in vs dedicated the dedicated scopes look better. The clip ons are great for turning a day rifle into a night rifle and are very versitle but the dedicate scopes have the edge in weight and image I think.

 

[Louis Richards]

My want for a clip on was ONLY in regards to wondering if a clip on gives the user optical clarity through all magnifications via use of his regular scope and clip on vs thermal scope digital magnification only?

If I buy say a 3-20 thermal and 3 is optical and the rest digital, the image gets distorted. But if I have an optical scope that's 3-20 with a clip on, will I get optical clarity through all 3-20?

 

[JPK]

The answer is no. When you zoom the day scope you are zooming in on the thermal's screen so the view becomes pixilated in a manner similar to the way it becomes pixilated when you use digital zoom.

TLM has done a video on using a clip on, it is posted somewhere on this forum. With a good 1x6 day scope and a 0x magnification 42mm, 640 resolution clip on the view appears useable through about 6x or so.

I will try to find a link to the video.

From my experience with 640 thermals useable digital zoom tops out about 4x.

So, it would seem that a 3x native magnification 640 thermal at 4x digital zoom would outperform a 0x 640 clip on, in so far as maximum total useable magnification, but I have no personal experience to confirm that.

Top of the line I2 NV clip ons in front of top of the line day optics seem to be the answer to night time long range shooting.

Personally, from a hunting perspective, I find a 200yd shot in the daytime fairly rare, with the vast majority of shots on game inside of 100yds. In my limited night time experience even 100yds is long.

JPK

 

[JPK]

Here is the link to the clip on thread with the great explanatory video: Hmm, having issues. The video is on page 4 and the thread title is something like "The View Through A Thermal Clip On." I will post a link when I'm at my desk today. This iPad can be a pita.

JPK

 

[Brian Shaffer]

Right, my hunting partner did not understand this. He thought putting a 1-6x daylight scope behind a 1x thermal would give him a 1-6x thermal, failing to understand why the image pixelated at 6x on the optical scope.

When you put a daylight scope behind a thermal or NV scope, the daylight scope is basically like putting a magnifying glass in front of your cell phone to make it a big screen TV. You still have a cell phone image, just bigger.

You cannot actually overcome the limitation of the native resolution of the thermal scope by putting daylight scope magnification behind it.

 

[JPK]

Here's the link: What a thermal clip on looks like through a scope. | Lone Star Boars

 

[rob072770]

Great info. That is why TLM recommends using a dedicated thermal or NV on a rifle

 

[Louis Richards]

Armasight Zeus 640 3-24x75 (30hz) Thermal Imaging Weapon Sight, FLIR Tau 2 - 640x512 (17 micron) 30hz Core, 75mm Lens 640x512
Got a great deal on this guys anyone else is interested, it will be here on Friday.

$6495. But optic planet has 10% off scope for $650. So $5880. Trust me when I tell you I have been researching prices on the scope for a couple weeks it's not ever going to get any cheaper again!!!

So basically, 12 X is about as good as it gets to retain reasonable clarity? After that, I get so distorted is not is usable? I can live with that

Something still confuses me is why they have 1x, 2X, 4x and 8x? What exactly is 1x useful for? Isn't 1X just basically a regular 3x optical? Shouldn't it start off with 2X?

 

[FrankT]

Louis, I am betting or vendors who support this forum can get to that price too...well guys?

 

[hdfireman]

Guess he won't know what price he COULD have gotten from the vendors here!