THERMAL SCOPE SIDE BY SIDE COMPARISON.

[wigwamitus]

other than rain, almost every single article, if not every single article, says that all users will wind up with either black hot or a white hot and never use color at all.

If they had said "almost all users" they would've allowed for the existence of "wigwamitus" ... I read also ... but I go out to the field and experiement and find out what works for me. And sometimes it agrees with what I read ... and sometimes it doesn't. But ultimately, what works for me in the field is what I go with!

...
I have to wonder why it comes with an extra battery holder ...

No matter how many batteries we have connected, there will be that "magic moment" when we have to change them. When in the field, if I think I am low, I change during a lull so I don't have to change during a non-lull ... just like that extra clip

... you walk out to the woods and everything is really dark and hard to see and there's no heat images. So it's really hard to find a point to focus on to begin with. When I walked out into the street in my neighborhood of course it was much easier. So I guess I'm asking myself, if I'm going to the woods hunting, how exactly do I focus this thing, I can't really see anything anyway, because it's all dark?

Out in the woods and pastures where I live, unless it is raining or misting (or snowing etc.) there are hot and cold objects ... and or objects with varying emissivity! Tree trunks and bolders for example. But certainly the thermal is best at detecting critters! That's why many of us here use PVS-14 on helmet to navigate and thermal to detect/engage critters. The two technologies compliment each other well.

If I am using the thermal as a spotter ... then I focus it at about 100yds and leave it there while walking/driving around. If I am shooting, I will adjust the focus if there is time, before the shot.

As to moving targets ... if you ever played football for instance ... throwing a pass is similar to hitting a moving target. We don't have time to "calculate" we just have time to use experience and "throw the lead" at the target. I'd say practice makes one improve - though might not make one perfect . When hog hunting at night ... there might be a group of hogs. They are always moving unless they are dead ... so waiting for them to stop moving is not a good option. Of course they move faster after the initial volley ... and if you are there to help irradicate you need to kill all you see ... so waiting for them to stop moving is not efficient.

If you want to improve your shooting skills ... getting something like a .22LR and practice the FUNDAMENTALS (sight picture, breathing, position, trigger) that never gets old. The only main aspect the .22LR does not simulate is RECOIL ... so you need a 30 cal of some sort to get some recoil management practice.

To learn to shoot moving targets, go after small critters on your land in the day. Squirrels for instance ... a.k.a. tree rats. Or you can set up an inanimate moving target rig ... it can and has been done. Also shooting clays might help.

You don't have to use "red hot" or "sepia" ... you can also just turn down the brightness ... on the Apollo I could not turn the brightness down far enough to mitigate headaches ... hence I started using the "red hot" ... but again these ideas are for detection for when using a thermal as a spotter ... not when shooting. When shooting, you want brightness and you want to flip-flop back and forth between white and black hot and compare those images and help make a target ID decision and decide which to use to shoot. I don't think one white or black is better ... they are 2 sides of a coin. In some circumstances I can see the target clearly on black and not at all on white and in other circumstances I can see the target clearly on white and not on black. Hence for me at least ... switching back and forth is indicated, time permitting (thanks for the tip Aaron ! ).

... I'm not as much a hunter as I am preparing for any tactical situation. I just think for tactical, I want 1.5, as I envision encounters especially indoors of a building or inside of a house. Where if no lights, this thing would have a one up like no other!! But with 3X would make it somewhat difficult to spot close up. I also understand I am not on a tactical website, but one dedicated to shooting wild pigs, Prodominantly in Texas only

Hunting is a great way to improve many skills. It is very challenging as well as a lot of fun! And in Texas night hog hunting is legal! Unlike in KS where I live.

==
This is the smallest forum I frequent, but it is by far the best ... the people here are on a scale of 1 to 10 ... on average are 8s on this forum ... whereas on other forums they are somewhere around 4s on average ... and the NV/thermal knowledge on this site ... per person is more like a 9.5 versus a 1.5 elsewhere ... so if you want to learn anything about nv/thermal watch a bunch of the hunting videos ... and spend as much time as you can out in the DARK. It will take you maybe 2 years to get comfortable out there. I love it out at night for me it is very relaxing. Oh, and get a pvs-14 and a helmet to enable you to see better! Thermal might not be enough for navigating ...

 

[Terry]

This is the smallest forum I frequent, but it is by far the best ... the people here are on a scale of 1 to 10 ... on average are 8s on this forum ... whereas on other forums they are somewhere around 4s on average ... and the NV/thermal knowledge on this site ... per person is more like a 9.5 versus a 1.5 elsewhere ..."

I 100% agree with this statement! I won't name names/places, but I recently had the honor of being banned from my first forum in over 15 years. Why was I banned they couldn't tell me a reason because there wasn't any real issue. I truly believe the real hidden issue is a paying vendor there didn't like me reviewing products he didn't sale. I'm sure he called me a shill which they could have checked/confirmed that I buy all of my gear my own money, nothing free given to me, buy from different vendors and many different companies and have proof of purchase to prove that to anyone. I now realize money talks honor, honesty and truth just doesn't matter on some of these big forums its vendor money that matters. I pride my self on being honest and giving real impartial feedback, good or bad and will do so in the future.
I figure its their lost in the end I have over 20 years of using NV and now thermal the last few years in the woods. I don't claim to be a expert I'm still learning every single day and have made plenty of mistakes over the years, but at least I'm honest and post of real hands on experience!



Back on topic, my newest Thor a 640 2.5X 50mm lens seems to have be updated no reticle movement issue anymore. Also I totally agree the first model 640 THOR I had truly seemed to be under magnified if you went by off ATN's specs like the rounded the number up. The 2015 model THOR I now own seems pretty dead nuts a true 2.5X scope comparing it to other thermals I own and have used. I have no clue what they changed or even if its FLIR sensor that changed they use in the scope. I'm not a ATN fan boy, but will say I've been 100% happy with my 2015 640 Thor 2.5X so I will give ATN that credit.

 

[wigwamitus]

... I won't name names/places ...

No need ... we know the place ... we know the name! you are not alone here in your "honor" !!!

 

[Beacon22]

This is the smallest forum I frequent, but it is by far the best ... the people here are on a scale of 1 to 10 ... on average are 8s on this forum ... whereas on other forums they are somewhere around 4s on average ... and the NV/thermal knowledge on this site ... per person is more like a 9.5 versus a 1.5 elsewhere ..."

I 100% agree with this statement! I won't name names/places, but I recently had the honor of being banned from my first forum in over 15 years. Why was I banned they couldn't tell me a reason because there wasn't any real issue. I truly believe the real hidden issue is a paying vendor there didn't like me reviewing products he didn't sale. I'm sure he called me a shill which they could have checked/confirmed that I buy all of my gear my own money, nothing free given to me, buy from different vendors and many different companies and have proof of purchase to prove that to anyone. I now realize money talks honor, honesty and truth just doesn't matter on some of these big forums its vendor money that matters. I pride my self on being honest and giving real impartial feedback, good or bad and will do so in the future.
I figure its their lost in the end I have over 20 years of using NV and now thermal the last few years in the woods. I don't claim to be a expert I'm still learning every single day and have made plenty of mistakes over the years, but at least I'm honest and post of real hands on experience!



Back on topic, my newest Thor a 640 2.5X 50mm lens seems to have be updated no reticle movement issue anymore. Also I totally agree the first model 640 THOR I had truly seemed to be under magnified if you went by off ATN's specs like the rounded the number up. The 2015 model THOR I now own seems pretty dead nuts a true 2.5X scope comparing it to other thermals I own and have used. I have no clue what they changed or even if its FLIR sensor that changed they use in the scope. I'm not a ATN fan boy, but will say I've been 100% happy with my 2015 640 Thor 2.5X so I will give ATN that credit.

How do you like the new 640 Thor??

 

[Terry]

I really do like the 2015 model Thor ATN . I owned a couple of earlier Thor's no major issues with them, but they needed some improvements namely I didn't like the way the cross arrows moved during zoom. Second I didn't like it when I powered up my last early 2014 model and then had to hit a couple buttons before the cross arrow was visible. That really sucked if you jumped something and were in a hurry to get a shot off. And a few small software bugs which seem to plague most thermal scopes out there as I've never seen one that was 100% perfect yet software wise

I was pleasantly surprised when I received my 2015 640 2.5X to find the cross arrow movement issue was addressed, second when it hit the power button the scope is ready to shoot with 3 seconds basically one touch shoot very fast. It does help to Cal the image for clarity upon power up but it isn't a must for a fast shoot.

Software/hardware wise the I've only seen one small issue if its really even a issue not batteries. For some reason when the batteries get low maybe the voltage, the scope will power off. This is after a lot of use on a set of batteries normally several hours. I would normally say the batteries were just dead. That said I can open the battery compartment and break battery contact re install and get another 30 minutes or more on the batteries. low battery Voltage I'm sure not even a software issue, but I hate to waste 30 minutes of run time on three high dollar 123A batteries so maybe the battery meter could be improved to get that last 30 minutes out of the batteries. I don't know?

Overall, the 2015 Thor has been very solid and I've used it whole a lot in all conditions a very solid hunting scope its never left me down so far. The bigger 50mm lens also seems to help in poor thermal conditions which lowers clarity on all thermal scopes. The 2015 has never failed to make a shootable image in the worst conditions I have been out in. I had other thermal scopes and mono's that whited out so bad I couldn't use them some of those nights. I don't know if it was because they had smaller lens or software related ?

I had planned to buy a IR Hunter MK II or Zeus Pro this fall and still might do so. However I think for now I'm happy with my setup and performance so my wait a while and see what the market does on new models/upgrades.

 

[Beacon22]

Good to hear about your positive experience with the Thor. I just sent my 336 3X back to ATN so they can upgrade the Core to a 640 and upgrade the lens to the 50mm and also a Firmware upgrade.

I really do like the 2015 model Thor ATN . I owned a couple of earlier Thor's no major issues with them, but they needed some improvements namely I didn't like the way the cross arrows moved during zoom. Second I didn't like it when I powered up my last early 2014 model and then had to hit a couple buttons before the cross arrow was visible. That really sucked if you jumped something and were in a hurry to get a shot off. And a few small software bugs which seem to plague most thermal scopes out there as I've never seen one that was 100% perfect yet software wise

I was pleasantly surprised when I received my 2015 640 2.5X to find the cross arrow movement issue was addressed, second when it hit the power button the scope is ready to shoot with 3 seconds basically one touch shoot very fast. It does help to Cal the image for clarity upon power up but it isn't a must for a fast shoot.

Software/hardware wise the I've only seen one small issue if its really even a issue not batteries. For some reason when the batteries get low maybe the voltage, the scope will power off. This is after a lot of use on a set of batteries normally several hours. I would normally say the batteries were just dead. That said I can open the battery compartment and break battery contact re install and get another 30 minutes or more on the batteries. low battery Voltage I'm sure not even a software issue, but I hate to waste 30 minutes of run time on three high dollar 123A batteries so maybe the battery meter could be improved to get that last 30 minutes out of the batteries. I don't know?

Overall, the 2015 Thor has been very solid and I've used it whole a lot in all conditions a very solid hunting scope its never left me down so far. The bigger 50mm lens also seems to help in poor thermal conditions which lowers clarity on all thermal scopes. The 2015 has never failed to make a shootable image in the worst conditions I have been out in. I had other thermal scopes and mono's that whited out so bad I couldn't use them some of those nights. I don't know if it was because they had smaller lens or software related ?

I had planned to buy a IR Hunter MK II or Zeus Pro this fall and still might do so. However I think for now I'm happy with my setup and performance so my wait a while and see what the market does on new models/upgrades.

 

[Drift]

A friend of mine got a really good deal on that scope (60hz I think) from on of the vendors on this forum. You Betcha I'll look here first when I'm ready to buy

 

[Louis Richards]

And yet so here I sat. A person who watched $6000 separate from his checking account for a thermal imaging scope, while simultaneously being quite ignorant on subject matter of the same. And yet a person who eerily felt very comfortable to reside there, because I was resting in the knowledge that I had definitely made the right choice and this will be a one time investment to secure the possible welfare of my family. And that after literally months, fact years of research on the subject matter, feeling quite safe that concerning the subject of night vision and thermal vision, the obvious winner was thermal and that there would be no reason at all to own a night vision device.

Now enters the flamboyant Wigwam, looking like a cyborg, with talks about doing night vision out of the left eye and thermal out of the right, enabling himself to comfortably strut about in darkened woods setting where I previously was stepping all over myself, trying to just stay in the upright position with my new thermal device. Knowing that basically, if I ever encountered him, the life would be taken out on me before I had a chance to even recognize him

So now thanks to him, not only have I now learned a VAST amount of information via only his few posts (actually I can make the statement, that what i have learned in his few posts has offered me more insight to my device than my months and months of research) I can now ALSO thank him for possibly watching another $3500 separate from my wallet for a NV unit and trying to explain to my wife why the statement " I know it's a lot of money, but this is the final stage and I will not ever need anything again" is turning out to be nothing but bullshit

Hey Wigwam? It's a love-hate relationship I have over here for you buddy!!! LOL

 

[Jhop]

Just think the military has digital and thermal mergened onto one screen. So basically you have a day TV image combined with a thermal image. It's awesome!

 

[wigwamitus]

... I know it's a lot of money, but this is the final stage and I will not ever need anything again" is turning out to be nothing but bullshit ...

You're learning FAST L.R. !!!

( ask my wife how long it took me/HER to figure that out!!! )

 

[Louis Richards]

Being a Flashlight techie, meaning I am very much into high power, led tactical flashlights, I have to make note of one thing that I believe to be a grave error in the scope. Almost anything that takes two or more 123a batteries will also take a single, 18650 rechargeable. It's almost a universal kind of understanding. And when I researched and even the owners manual itself says, takes 123A's OR 18650, that naturally lead one to believe that would mean in the scope itself.

Unfortunately, it's very misleading, because the only way to actually utilize that battery is in an external battery pack as an optional accessory at of course, an additional cost, and that may have been a purposeful financial maneuver... In my humble opinion, you should never advertise that any product can take a certain type of battery when in reality the only way to take the battery is by buying an ad on pack that doesn't come with the scope. So really, the scope does not take the battery, but the battery pack does.

But because they opted to put the 123 A's side-by-side standing up next to each other instead of length wise, this unfortunately leaves a user with no availability to use the common rechargeable 18650. I believe that engineers could have easily found a way to turn those batteries longways versus straight up-and-down and that very tiny maneuver, would've offered EXTREME and VERY noticeable increased battery life, by using a 18650, 3400 mah battery, Increasing the operating life substantially. Not to mention, the savings alone of having a rechargeable versus throwaway 123's.

In short, bang for buck, meaning such a very small and easily engineered thing to do would've offered such vast and great benefits that it's borderline insane that they didn't do it.

 

[Louis Richards]

Not talking to you Wigwam... LMAO

Night vision and thermal imaging merged on the one screen? Can they get any better?

I'm really perplexed and the fact is already have two night vision devices. One is
Bushnell Equinox Z Digital Night Vision Monocular
at 4.5 and this new white technology is absolutely awesome and shows such an accurate and crisp and clear night vision scene for only a few hundred dollars that it makes me wonder why I should even bother buying the more expensive stuff. And the other is a cheapie hundred dollar 2x night owl, which for inside of a house in close quarters, also does a spectacular job at cheap Gen 1 one technology. That is what I use in the bedroom at night for close up. The Bushnell unfortunately is 4.5, doesn't do a great job at close up, but for 100+ yards out, the details and crispness is something equal to if not surpassing of the $3500 stuff out there. I cannot speak more highly of this unit because what it does bang for buck is unrivaled in my opinion. Unfortunately I don't really know a way to utilize both of these but tonight I'm going to try.

 

[Chopperdrvr]

Being a Flashlight techie, meaning I am very much into high power, led tactical flashlights, I have to make note of one thing that I believe to be a grave error in the scope. Almost anything that takes 123a batteries will also take a 18650 rechargeable. It's almost a universal kind of thing. And when I researched and even the owners manual itself says, takes 123A's OR 18650, leaving one to believe that that would mean in the scope itself.

Unfortunately, it's very misleading, because the only way to actually utilize that battery is in an external battery pack as an optional accessory at of course an additional cost and that may have been a purposeful financial maneuver... In my humble opinion, you should never advertise that any product can take a certain type of battery when in reality the only way to take the battery is by buying an ad on pack that doesn't come with the scope.

But because they opted to put the 123 A's side-by-side standing up next to each other instead of length wise, this unfortunately leaves a user with no availability to use the common rechargeable 18650. I believe that engineers could have easily found a way to turn those batteries longways versus straight up-and-down and that very tiny maneuver, would've offered EXTREME and VERY noticeable increased battery life, by using a 18650, 3400 mah battery, Increasing the operating life to almost times two. Not to mention, the savings alone of having a rechargeable versus throwaway 123's.

In short, bang for buck, meaning such a very small and easily engineered thing to do would've offered such vast and great benefits that it's borderline insane that they didn't do it.

Many manufacturers have stayed away from installing batteries in line with the scope due to the problem with the unit shutting down during recoil. A vertical arrangement of the batteries help reduce that problem.

 

[Brian Shaffer]

And keeps the batteries from deforming during recoil...which may be part of the shutoff issue.

 

[Brian Shaffer]

And keeps the batteries from deforming during recoil...which may be part of the shutoff issue.

 

[Louis Richards]

Not an expert on these as we all know, but feel I am on batteries, so I have a tendency to disagree. You have to keep in mind that these are used in the vast majority of tactical flashlights now, which mount directly to weapons. I feel if the same batteries in a $75 flashlight can take the recoil, surely, a $7500 product should be able to figure it out at least equally as well, if not superiorly.

Everyone forgive me, because as I am going back and looking it seems that maybe some of my posts are not staying on subject matter and I'm noticing now that this is actually a sticky for the first time. I guess this was the first thread I joined in and as such, had a tendency to hang around as if this was a general open forum for general questions. I may be starting to take it a bit south of the subject matter with several of my posts and I will try not to do that. Stickies are meant for people to get some great information fast and some of these conversations have been clouding it up.

My apologies for that and also for the graciousness of members for not pointing it out more abruptly

 

[Ratdog68]

We NEVER get side tracked around here (ducking/running for the bunker).

 

[customcutter]

NOOO NEEEVEEEERRRRR!!!!!!!!


Hey look at that I got one of those red stripe thingies! Oops there I go chasing waskaly wabbits!

 

[FrankT]

NOOO NEEEVEEEERRRRR!!!!!!!!


Hey look at that I got one of those red stripe thingies! Oops there I go chasing waskaly wabbits!

Yeah I even have the patch and sticker for that!

 

[customcutter]

Yeah, but who can say they took a topic off topic twice in one post?;)

 

[rgilbert]

Sorry Louis, I have been out of town and away from the internet testing some products. I am pro staff for ******************* and when I saw your post I "assumed" you had already made up your mind about a purchase. I will not try to talk another company/vendor out of their money and wish you luck with your scope. As for sighting it in simply tape a piece of aluminum foil to a clean target. Place the target so the sun hits it. Adjust your pallet to your preference. Start up close, say 25 yards and adjust to point of aim then move out further. Any questions you have you can PM me and I will try to answer them. If I don't know the answer I will try to find out for you.

Rick