Just pulled the trigger on an IR Patrol
- Thread starter Louis Richards
- Start date
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
I have both 18650s and 16650s that are different sizes ...
Some of my 16650 are larger diameter than others. I think the larger diameter ones have more mAh they say 2500mAh on the side.
And like FrankT some of my 18650s are different lengths. Fortunately I have flashlights that use them all and a charger that has "variable length" slots ... and even can charge from 1-4 batteries.
I didn't design these 18650s or the 16650s so don't blame me!!!
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I suspect if one tried to "hammer in" a larger battery that won't fit, into a smaller battery compartment, the battery will start to come apart ... hopefully once that starts to happen, one would abandon the effort and find something else to do.
Some of my 16650 are larger diameter than others. I think the larger diameter ones have more mAh they say 2500mAh on the side.
And like FrankT some of my 18650s are different lengths. Fortunately I have flashlights that use them all and a charger that has "variable length" slots ... and even can charge from 1-4 batteries.
I didn't design these 18650s or the 16650s so don't blame me!!!
==
I suspect if one tried to "hammer in" a larger battery that won't fit, into a smaller battery compartment, the battery will start to come apart ... hopefully once that starts to happen, one would abandon the effort and find something else to do.
JPK, I just went through this internal battle with myself, convincing me that in daytime use the patrol would be just as useful as nighttime use, to identify potentially hidden targets. And I just concluded the matter with myself. To open that door again, with your probably excellent advice, it's too much for me at this moment
As good as the view through the Patrol can be in good thermal conditions, it can't compare with the daytime view through a decent day scope.
I used my Patrol and HD 19A as spotters frequently during the day time while deer hunting this season, and will do so while predator hunting, and the number of critters that I found with the thermal, even in bright daylight, that I didn't find with good binos is really remarkable. However, I usually found them by spotting just a sliver or chunk of thermal return through brush or marsh reeds, and needed the binos to ID them, which is can take a bit of time until I make out an antler tine, or some fur, etc, often when they move in their bed or take a step, etc. In some cases, I could make a shot with a day scope, using the day scope to pick a bullet route through the cover to the vitals. I couldn't have done that with just the thermal.
The Wilcox weapon mount for the Patrol is, in my experience, good for no better than 3" grouping at 100yds from a rifle that will shoot much better. And that grouping held constant whether the Patrol was left on the rifle or dismounted and remounted. I suspect the group size would grow with wear to the Patrol's shoe or the Wilcox mount. The D-Loc Patrol weapon mount seems to provide repeatability and to hold zero as well as the rifle will shoot, or at least as well as I can shoot the rifle. I need more time to confirm my initial impression, but see no reason the D-Loc won't continue to provide both the repeatability and stability missing from the Wilcox mount. I would suggest selling off the Wilcox mount and getting the better but less expensive D-Loc mount, and putting the difference toward a decent day scope and good QD mount.
FWIW, the two different brands of 18650's I tried didn't come close to fitting into the Patrol's battery extender, which I have installed on my Patrol. CR 123A's drop in, but there is little spare room. I wonder if the barrel of the extender is tighter than the barrel on the single battery housing, and suspect that it might be based on your comments. If so, then the logical reason IR tightened the diameter is to prevent the use of 18650's in the Patrol.
JPK
RattlesnakeDan
San Antonio Texas
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What the heck is that all about RD??? Did you use a IR patrol to see if that guy still had a tooth in his head?
Louis Richards
LSB Member
Different in size yes Brian, but almost a universally accepted
fact, that where a 123A can go, so can it's slightly larger brother the 18650.
For survival, I personally have in excess of 25 different devices that run 123a. With the exception of the patrol, every single one of them also take a 18650.
So even though the dimensions are different, that doesn't mean by a longshot it won't fit. They almost always do.
fact, that where a 123A can go, so can it's slightly larger brother the 18650.
For survival, I personally have in excess of 25 different devices that run 123a. With the exception of the patrol, every single one of them also take a 18650.
So even though the dimensions are different, that doesn't mean by a longshot it won't fit. They almost always do.
Louis Richards
LSB Member
Heck, you may be right JPK. Because I have a lot of spare room with a 123 on the base battery holder. It could very well be that the extender is more narrow than the base. Until I get mine, which I've been waiting over a month for now, I just womt know!
Still getting the same runaround. IR got a batch of them and but they didn't work for one reason or another. Second batch was supposed to come in Friday, waiting to get one pulled and sent to me.
Still getting the same runaround. IR got a batch of them and but they didn't work for one reason or another. Second batch was supposed to come in Friday, waiting to get one pulled and sent to me.
Louis Richards
LSB Member
Just to clarify JPK, are you saying 3 inch groups when mounted and zero, as in that's the best it will ever get? Or when removed and put back on 3" groups from original zero?
I've also got one of those ND green
laser flashlights. It runs on 123's and an 18650 will not fit it either.
Every other device I have to date that takes 123's will also fit and handle an 18650.
When I am shopping for something like a flashlight. Now I make sure it is designated to run on 18650. I don't assume that because it uses 123 that it will also accept an 18650.
I do like and prefer an 18650 and won't buy another flashlight unless it uses them.
laser flashlights. It runs on 123's and an 18650 will not fit it either.
Every other device I have to date that takes 123's will also fit and handle an 18650.
When I am shopping for something like a flashlight. Now I make sure it is designated to run on 18650. I don't assume that because it uses 123 that it will also accept an 18650.
I do like and prefer an 18650 and won't buy another flashlight unless it uses them.
Louis,
3" is the best the Wilcox mount would do, regardless if the Patrol was zero'd and left on or zero's, Patrol removed, Patrol remounted and shot again. So, it's repeatability with regard to removing and replacing the Patrol was fine, but the mount was only capable of 3" @ 100yds. I think group size would grow with wear as well.
I zero'd the Patrol on the same rifle yesterday, but using the D-Loc mount, and it appeared to hold 5 shots in about 1" @ 100yds. However, I shot the hand warmer target off on the first shot of last group and was unknowingly fired the remaining four of the 5 rounds at the return from the residual heat captured by the paper target (I know I shot the hand warmer off on the first shot because it had only one hole in it.) The paper had a couple of prior 5.56 bullet holes in it and I couldn't be absolutely positive which were fresh. Worst case, including all bullet holes, the group looked about 1 1/2".
Since I went with the UNV remote battery pack for my 35mm MK II, I have a spare, unused battery extender for the Patrol or MK II (they use the same extender) that I would sell you for the list price. I'll pick up shipping if you are interested.
JPK
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wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
If I am hunting and firing standing unsupported and consistently getting 3 inch groups at 100yds ... I am totally good to go in my book !!!
Louis Richards
LSB Member
The more I know, the less I know with all this stuff. I am missing the days of good ole iron sites..
Louis Richards
LSB Member
JPK, I haven't stopped thinking about what you told me. Still can't wrap my brain around this whole thing. It is perplexing. Lord knows, I don't always want to have to raise my rifle to look through my patrol. I like it as a spotting scope. At the same time, my night vision goggles do the exact same thing. Almost.
But in trying to come up with situations where keeping it as my full-time scope would not suffice, and using the example you gave, wouldn't binoculars do the same thing? To say I spot something, unclear what it is, and use my binoculars to identify and then take the shot?
I tried my best to use the further example you gave, whereas you even picked a different route to take to fire the bullet. I didn't really quite understand that, but I'm sure its possible. Still, the main thing I'm trying to achieve, is not having to carry two scopes. If I use the mounts that you are saying, that would still involve me having to carry an extra scope. And my mini binoculars are much more compact and I carry those anyway.
Another reason, 3 inches without a doubt gives me reason to pause. But still, the problem is, the equipment that I bought allows me to quickly detach it from a rifle and put it right on my helmet mount. Again, seeing as how I have my mod three goggles, I wouldn't really be doing that often. But I do like having the capability of it. For the reason I stated above, not always wanting to have to use my rifle to look around. So I like the very quick detach concept of off the rifle and onto the helmet for observing, then right to the rifle to take the shot if I observed something. Seems like the best of all worlds to me. More so at night but same thing during the day.
As I said, the more I know the less I know when it comes to all this new technology. I just can't help but feel, that if I am really, seriously worried about people set up to ambush me, then they would be in hiding. And the possibility exists, that my day scope would miss it if someone was in camouflage hidden behind weeds or bushes, and my thermal would not. And with that understanding, it only makes sense to use the Patrol as my full-time scope. And when it comes to an issue of identification, I pull out my binoculars.
Any input would be appreciated as even though I have finalized this in my head, I can't help but constantly kick it around. Because I too, am an optical man
But it may just be compared to all this new technology, optical is just outdated and can't compare any longer.
But in trying to come up with situations where keeping it as my full-time scope would not suffice, and using the example you gave, wouldn't binoculars do the same thing? To say I spot something, unclear what it is, and use my binoculars to identify and then take the shot?
I tried my best to use the further example you gave, whereas you even picked a different route to take to fire the bullet. I didn't really quite understand that, but I'm sure its possible. Still, the main thing I'm trying to achieve, is not having to carry two scopes. If I use the mounts that you are saying, that would still involve me having to carry an extra scope. And my mini binoculars are much more compact and I carry those anyway.
Another reason, 3 inches without a doubt gives me reason to pause. But still, the problem is, the equipment that I bought allows me to quickly detach it from a rifle and put it right on my helmet mount. Again, seeing as how I have my mod three goggles, I wouldn't really be doing that often. But I do like having the capability of it. For the reason I stated above, not always wanting to have to use my rifle to look around. So I like the very quick detach concept of off the rifle and onto the helmet for observing, then right to the rifle to take the shot if I observed something. Seems like the best of all worlds to me. More so at night but same thing during the day.
As I said, the more I know the less I know when it comes to all this new technology. I just can't help but feel, that if I am really, seriously worried about people set up to ambush me, then they would be in hiding. And the possibility exists, that my day scope would miss it if someone was in camouflage hidden behind weeds or bushes, and my thermal would not. And with that understanding, it only makes sense to use the Patrol as my full-time scope. And when it comes to an issue of identification, I pull out my binoculars.
Any input would be appreciated as even though I have finalized this in my head, I can't help but constantly kick it around. Because I too, am an optical man
But it may just be compared to all this new technology, optical is just outdated and can't compare any longer.
Sometimes you just got to shut up and hunt.
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Louis,
I think Brian has it right. But since you don't hunt, I would suggest taking the gear out somewhere where you can simulate a hunt and put it to the test. If you took the day scope and Patrol along and "pretended" they were rifle mounted you could do it in a park, wildlife management area or refuge, relying on critters to play the roles of malcontents.
For daylight use, the thermal is fantastic as a spotter, but only fantastic as a spotter. When the target is even partially exposed you will have thermal returns that will alert you to the need to investigate with a good day optic. In addition, if it is a shooting situation, a good day scope will provide a lot more information than a thermal is likely too, allowing for a successful shot. For example, a well camouflaged target of interest hiding behind anything but a solid screen of brush, terrain, building, etc, will be revealed with the thermal, but the return may be just a sliver or a couple of splotches which are unrecognizable as a target until investigation with a good day optic reveals, say, an antler tine, flick of an ear for a deer, or the strap of a day pack, glove laid on the ground for someone laying in wait, etc, etc, etc. As I described earlier, with a good set of binos I could pick out a bullet path to a nearly obscured deer, and could have transitioned that view, that bullet path to a day scope - but not to a thermal scope since even in the best conditions some brush and other intervening vegetation may not to be visible through thermal.
In low light conditions, you would want very good day optics but as light dims even the best binos or day scope leave a lot wanting. And that is where the thermal reigns for both spotting and shooting. (Mini binos, even the very best, don't cut it. I have 8x20 Leica binos, and can attest to their handiness and usefulness in bright daylight and their quickly diminishing usefulness as light wanes.)
You cannot compare even the best NV with thermal. Nothing living hides from thermal if it is partially, even minimally exposed. What it is might be a difficult or impossible question to answer relying on thermal alone if its presence is only revealed by a sliver or blotch of return, but you will know it is there. In night time shadows even an elephant can be invisible to NV, at least without the use of IR, which has the potential to not only give away your position, but to reveal what tools you have at your disposal, like NV. Thermal gives away nothing.
I strongly suggest you try the Patrol as a clip on. If it works it would solve all of your issues, you would use it as a spotter and could rapidly weapon mount it in front of your day scope for night shooting. Carrying the Patrol as a spotter, but ready to weapon mount is no challenge, there are a plethora of MOLLE pouches which will fit a USMC war belt, and the same with regard to a duty style belt. When I night hunt I carry my Patrol in either a jacket pocket if I'm traveling really light, or in a pouch on my left hip if carrying spare batteries, mag, water, etc.
[FWIW, I have a predator hunting bud who very successfully uses clip on thermals in front of a day scope. He does not own a dedicated spotter and uses one of his spare clip ons as a spotter. As easy as his clip ons are to weapon mount, for your purposes it would be easy to transition a clip on from hand held spotter to weapon. I have never tried the Patrol as a clip on, and have heard that zeroing it can be a pita, but it can be done, and the directions on how to do it are provided in the flip through quick guide that comes with the Patrol. The D-Loc mount would make a fine QD mount for a clip on as well, the Wilcox less so because of the necessity of leaving the base on the rifle.]
On the D-Loc weapon mount for the Patrol, nothing about the D-Loc mount interferes with using the Patrol helmet mounted. Moreover, the D-Loc mount is a QD mount, and is about as quick and easy to use as the Wilcox weapon mount, it might be perhaps a tad slower to mount the Patrol, but a lot quicker to remove it from the rifle.
Here is a photo on my Patrol weapon mounted as a scope. You can see that the dovetail shoe is on the opposite side of the Patrol, and is ready to be used to helmet mount the Patrol. I use a somewhat smaller, but very similar D-Loc mount to weapon mount a PVS 14, and still wear the PVS 14 as well for example.
I really think you should follow Brian's advice and get out in the field to try different set ups with your gear, it really is the only way to determine for sure what works for you.
JPK
I think Brian has it right. But since you don't hunt, I would suggest taking the gear out somewhere where you can simulate a hunt and put it to the test. If you took the day scope and Patrol along and "pretended" they were rifle mounted you could do it in a park, wildlife management area or refuge, relying on critters to play the roles of malcontents.
For daylight use, the thermal is fantastic as a spotter, but only fantastic as a spotter. When the target is even partially exposed you will have thermal returns that will alert you to the need to investigate with a good day optic. In addition, if it is a shooting situation, a good day scope will provide a lot more information than a thermal is likely too, allowing for a successful shot. For example, a well camouflaged target of interest hiding behind anything but a solid screen of brush, terrain, building, etc, will be revealed with the thermal, but the return may be just a sliver or a couple of splotches which are unrecognizable as a target until investigation with a good day optic reveals, say, an antler tine, flick of an ear for a deer, or the strap of a day pack, glove laid on the ground for someone laying in wait, etc, etc, etc. As I described earlier, with a good set of binos I could pick out a bullet path to a nearly obscured deer, and could have transitioned that view, that bullet path to a day scope - but not to a thermal scope since even in the best conditions some brush and other intervening vegetation may not to be visible through thermal.
In low light conditions, you would want very good day optics but as light dims even the best binos or day scope leave a lot wanting. And that is where the thermal reigns for both spotting and shooting. (Mini binos, even the very best, don't cut it. I have 8x20 Leica binos, and can attest to their handiness and usefulness in bright daylight and their quickly diminishing usefulness as light wanes.)
You cannot compare even the best NV with thermal. Nothing living hides from thermal if it is partially, even minimally exposed. What it is might be a difficult or impossible question to answer relying on thermal alone if its presence is only revealed by a sliver or blotch of return, but you will know it is there. In night time shadows even an elephant can be invisible to NV, at least without the use of IR, which has the potential to not only give away your position, but to reveal what tools you have at your disposal, like NV. Thermal gives away nothing.
I strongly suggest you try the Patrol as a clip on. If it works it would solve all of your issues, you would use it as a spotter and could rapidly weapon mount it in front of your day scope for night shooting. Carrying the Patrol as a spotter, but ready to weapon mount is no challenge, there are a plethora of MOLLE pouches which will fit a USMC war belt, and the same with regard to a duty style belt. When I night hunt I carry my Patrol in either a jacket pocket if I'm traveling really light, or in a pouch on my left hip if carrying spare batteries, mag, water, etc.
[FWIW, I have a predator hunting bud who very successfully uses clip on thermals in front of a day scope. He does not own a dedicated spotter and uses one of his spare clip ons as a spotter. As easy as his clip ons are to weapon mount, for your purposes it would be easy to transition a clip on from hand held spotter to weapon. I have never tried the Patrol as a clip on, and have heard that zeroing it can be a pita, but it can be done, and the directions on how to do it are provided in the flip through quick guide that comes with the Patrol. The D-Loc mount would make a fine QD mount for a clip on as well, the Wilcox less so because of the necessity of leaving the base on the rifle.]
On the D-Loc weapon mount for the Patrol, nothing about the D-Loc mount interferes with using the Patrol helmet mounted. Moreover, the D-Loc mount is a QD mount, and is about as quick and easy to use as the Wilcox weapon mount, it might be perhaps a tad slower to mount the Patrol, but a lot quicker to remove it from the rifle.
Here is a photo on my Patrol weapon mounted as a scope. You can see that the dovetail shoe is on the opposite side of the Patrol, and is ready to be used to helmet mount the Patrol. I use a somewhat smaller, but very similar D-Loc mount to weapon mount a PVS 14, and still wear the PVS 14 as well for example.
I really think you should follow Brian's advice and get out in the field to try different set ups with your gear, it really is the only way to determine for sure what works for you.
JPK
Keep it simple, or not.. Sounds like it is getting way complicated? Just like a fishing pole, rifles/scopes all have a purpose for certain thingys!! Move to a place you can have a hill in back of you and crop land in front of you and then you would have no worries, You can see them coming?? Either way 3 inches at 50 yrds might be good for some but that number increases the further the target is away from you. 3 inches is unacceptable! BANG BANG!!
Louis Richards
LSB Member
Well I would LIKE to say Brian had it right, if ONLY I understood what he meant. Wasn't exactly an eye opening response to my question... But hey! Thanks for going that extra mile there Brian.. LOL
But I will add, that my money would go that thermal imaging was not made and designed with hunters in mind. In fact, I'm sure it was made and designed for military applications.
And since my set up is as such, I'm not sure that advice given for a hunting application would even apply? Again, I don't know. It's why I'm on here asking
JPK, as usual, your response is something to be printed and saved for future reference
Its in such great detail i'll have to reread it several times and mull it over I'm sure before it sinks into my skull!
Thank you sir for taking the time to explain it to me like that, it really does help.
But I will add, that my money would go that thermal imaging was not made and designed with hunters in mind. In fact, I'm sure it was made and designed for military applications.
And since my set up is as such, I'm not sure that advice given for a hunting application would even apply? Again, I don't know. It's why I'm on here asking
JPK, as usual, your response is something to be printed and saved for future reference
Its in such great detail i'll have to reread it several times and mull it over I'm sure before it sinks into my skull!
Thank you sir for taking the time to explain it to me like that, it really does help.