Just pulled the trigger on an IR Patrol

[wigwamitus]

Thanks for mentioning the hold over for those close shots, I am 100% sure I would have overlooked that issue.

Yup I felt helpless the first time I couldn't hit a rat a 1 yd distance. Hecque, I could kick it - but I couldn't shoot it!
So like I usually do when I screw up. I practiced, practiced, practiced and got the holds down. Now the only hard part is estimating the distance and the down/up angle effect which around here sometimes matters!
When I first started shooting rats, I was shooting them from 30-40yds. But those were the hand sized ones. Then I learned regardless, I can walk up on them and get closer. They will find a "should be good enough" hiding place and assume I can't see them. But they don't have the "humans have thermal sometimes" chapter in their play book. So the hiding place isn't good enough. If I get within 10yds they will try to find a better place and sometimes they can by going deeper into the wood pile.

==
I actually don't think the 2x digital would be good. It would be good for shooting, but then I would want to click it back to 1x for scanning. Easier just to leave it on 1x. 1x is working fine for me for this purpose.

 

[JPK]

I will have to get my bait pile up and running. When I have the rats reliably feeding I will try the NVD and thermal. Your description has me convinced that the thermal is the way to go, but zeroing a Patrol is a pita

 

[wigwamitus]

I used to zero mostly with bipods, but lately I've been zeroing with "bones only" prone, it seems faster and easier. For heavier rifles I will use tripod but for lighter rifles bones only prone seems to work well.
Here is my "rat slayer" ... with q-14 on top and the lm ir-laser on the 12 in front. CMMG upper on SA lower. Keymod rail system. Sig magazine (the most reliable I've used). I use eley edge for target shooting and eley subsonic hollow point for rat slaying.

 

[Louis Richards]

Few delays in getting it. And then a delay in actually using it. But I finally pulled it out and fired it up. Wow! No complaints on my end. The first thing I noticed about it was how user-friendly it is. Unlike my Zeus 640 ( which I sold) which is in my opinion, a bit difficult to maneuver around in getting from screen to screen, and function to function, the toggle switch makes this thing so usable a 10-year-old could figure it out and navigate around in seconds. The menu is very intuitive and with no training or previous experience whatsoever, you can flip through the menu in a breeze and figure everything out perfectly.

That alone would make this my number one pick. It's very aggravating when you're outside in the dark and you're trying to fumble around pushing these recessed buttons trying to get from one place to another. The toggle switch is all done by feel and just makes it wonderfully easy.

The picture is not quite as clear and phenomenal as you see in the videos and pictures, so I am not so positive it holds up to the hype concerning that. After much adjusting of the brightness and contrast and sharpness, I still couldn't get those clear pictures you see advertised all the time. But surely, it's as good as any image available in any other night visions device available. And to be honest, I didn't expect it to live up to that anyway, but would have been pleasantly surprised if it did.

The main reason I got this unit was that it was one x and for my needs, not being a hunter but more of a prepper, I wanted a wider FOV to spot any potential threats. It did not SEEM to produce in that manner as well as I thought it would. In fact, it didn't really seem that I had that great of a field of view compared to the Zeus in 3x. However I would take with a large grain of salt, as I no longer have the Zeus to make a comparison, so I really can't say. But I am sure it does. I think I am just seeing the same objects so far away its misleading.

The only thing I would like some advice on this. I have not tried it out as a clip on but that sure intrigues me. I have been told by the gentleman who sold it that it would not produce in any manner as good as a clip on, as a standalone. Not even close he said. Explanation as to why was a little too technical for me. Can anybody first tell me if they agree with that and if so, why in a way that I can understand?

 

[Louis Richards]

The gentleman I bought the IR Patrol from is Peter Lesbo. I2 Technologies. 208-944-4299. He is an amazing individual. He also custom-built my Mod-3 Gen3 pinnacle goggles. This unit rivals if not the exact same as the PVS15 and PVS23 for $12,000 to $20,000!. Its fully collimated all for around $7,000. With manual gain no yet. The thing I like about him is his availability I have texted him at hours of midnight and have him reply promptly. It's a real comfort knowing that you can talk to the actual person who built the unit to answer all your questions. He also gave me a five-year warranty.

He also sold me the Patrol around $500 cheaper than anybody. I didn't even know that he dealt with thermal imaging and never asked, and so I shopped around and found my cheapest price once again to be Optics Planet with a 10% off coupon. When I happen to mention it to him and he told me he sold them, the price he gave me was so much cheaper $500 cheaper to be exact. And again, was right there to answer any and all of my questions. God knows I didn't want to give my money to optics planet again.

Pete got his experience in the Marine Corps where he was basically the "go to guy" in the corp for anything to do with night vision and has followed the technology from its inception until now. He grew up with it and side-by-side with it. I can honestly say, without hype, I don't know anybody who knows more about night vision than Pete does. I cannot speak for his knowledge in thermal imaging, he may very well know as much about that too. I can't say. When the mod-3 was first designed, Pete was on the team and personally assisted in the design of it.

Enough said. I wouldn't hesitate to go to him to build you anything you want in the way of night vision and to get the best price on thermal imaging.

 

[Louis Richards]

One other thing I have to ask. The only way that I could mount it was to buy a rail extension so that I could bring the scope much closer to my eyes, is anyone else having to do that? In it's farthest back position, I had to completely collapse the stock on my A.R. 15 and even then push my head forward to reach the eyepiece and was still a little uncomfortable . With the rail extension, I only have to collapse it one notch to be comfortable.

 

[Ratdog68]

Generally, proper form for shooting an AR is "NTCH". If your nose is nearly touching the charging handle... why would the eyepiece not reach your face/eye?

 

[wigwamitus]

Glad to hear your equipment "upgrades" are going well! From the time you first showed up with the Zeus, it did not sound like that was the correct device for your needs. From what I know, I believe you are now much better situated!

==

01 Use of IR Patrol (or Q-14) as a clipon

02 Mounting ir-patrol (or q-14) far enough back

==
01 Use of IR Patrol (or Q-14) as a clipon
My understanding from Aaron is that an nv/thermal device can either have collimation or a diopter on the back end not both. And that makes total sense to me. The Zeus and Q-14 and Pulsar xd50a and both PVS-14s I have, have diopters on the back. The PS-22 and CO-LR do not as they are designed and built as clipons, so they have internal collimation instead.
I have noted, since IR-PATROL was first announced that the writeups say the device can be used as a clippon. That is interesting since as far as I know the IR-PATROL has a diopter on the back.
So, can a diopter fitted device be used as a clipon?
Well there is one way and that is to get a device like this. An "external collimator" if you will.

Torrey Pines Logic Zero Lens Riflescope to PVS-14 TP-H-ZL-PVS14

This device can mount a PVS-14 in front of your day scope and has collimating adjustments to allow you to collimate it directly when mounted on the rifle. So if there was something like this the fit IR-PATROL or Q-14 then we could use those somethings to collimate our thermals and use them properly as clipons.

The pvs-14 device won't work (without modification) for the Q-14, nor I think for the IR-PATROL.
In the absence of such devices, we must improvise.

What I did was to mount the q-14 in front of Vortex 1-6x (setting the vortex to 1.5x) and turn on the reticle in the q-14. The Vortex was already zeroed. So then I adjusted the reticle in the q-14 with the "boresight" menu. Then I fired several rounds at thirty yards and was within 1 inch of the aiming point. By leaving the reticle in the q-14 on, I can "collimate" with my head. That is use my head to align the two reticles before shooting. Definitely "poor man's collimation" but in the limited testing I did it seemed to work. But for my rat slaying I've found just putting the q-14 on the rifle is most efficient and that's what I've been doing.

02 Mounting ir-patrol (or q-14) far enough back.
I recently moved the q-14 over to 5.56 upper and I am having the opposite problem. I'm getting the eyepiece banging me in the eye if I shoot from the NTCH position, so I need to move mine farther forward.
Can you show us a pic of your problem? Your mount must be very different from mine. Perhaps you can turn it around backwards and get things to work better!

 

[JPK]

A couple of comments:

When the thermal conditions are excellent you can enjoy a view as good as the photos you see on line, but unless conditions are excellent there will be degradation. Warm blooded creatures still pop out, though range may be effected when conditions suck - this is the same for any thermal. Make sure you focus using both objective and ocular focus features. My advice is to focus to infinity and leave it there. POI with the Patrol will shift if after zero the objective focus ring is moved.

To make NUC'ing quick, easy and one handed, get t Butler Creek lens cap. Can't recall the size... There are witness dots on the Patrol behind the focus ring, once the Patrol is focused, then sighted in and cap is installed make a witness mark. Reconfirmed zero and focus.

Because the Patrol does not feature true columation like a built for purpose clip on, "columation" is achieved through other means, I think the Patrol relies on aligning reticle so, but I'm not sure. It makes a dandy compact and lightweight stand alone scope.

Have you discovered the four icon quick screen yet? It makes using the Patrol in the field a breeze. Iirc, the four icons are programmable, but default is NUC, 2x, polarity and photo capture. In the field, the only reason to access the full menus is to adjust brightness, or occasionally contrast. Find the quick screen by depressing the joy stick as if to turn the unit off, but release before the unit turns off and when the four icons are displayed. To return to the full menu do the same.

On the last menu page, iirc, you can set refresh to 30htz, which is fast enough and will extend battery life compared to the default 60htz.

Using the Wilcox weapon mount, even when set up in front of a rear BUIS, I found no issues with eye relief. You can move the Patrol rearward without BUIS's and the UNV DLOC mount allows it to go even further rearward. Without BUIS's it will mount, using the UNV mount, so that the end of the eye piece, not including rubber cup, is over the buffer tube nut, behind the charging handle. I like it that far back myself, but using my MK II, which has the same occular and which mounts with the ocular in the same location when mounted as far back as it will go without BUIS's, I managed to creep the stock and cut my nose and brow firing my 6.8 while predator huntingMonday night. (The eye pieces are not attached well and I have lost both the MK II's and the Patrol's in the field.) You really shouldn't have an issue with eye relief. Maybe post a photo?

JPK

 

[Louis Richards]

Ok. Lot to get in here

1) Yep, that's exactly how Pete explained it to me also about being used as a clip on. Just like Pete, I didn't understand it again! I guess the explanation is simply above my pay grade level and displays the limit of my understanding!! I'm OK with leaving it as it's not going to function as well in that capacity

2) Picture not as good unless it's perfect conditions. OK, I'm glad to know and the truth of the matter, and I don't know if I am alone in thinking this, is its not really important to have a clear picture anyway. Whether my white target is fuzzy or clear, I still see my white target very well so who cares

3) Zero changes with your refocus? That one was a shock to me. And was a little sad to hear it. I have heard about the focus to infinity many times. But I do constantly play with it. The diopter I never change, but the main focus ring I do.

4) Once again, my limited knowledge is displayed when reading about the lens cap u told me to get. I guess I really didn't understand the logic there? Are you saying that by putting a mark on cap, that way if I do change the focus ring I know when to bring it back to for zero? And it came with a lens cap, how does the Butler differentiate?

5) Nose touching the charging handle? I have never shot my AR like that, I always kept the stock all the way out a very comfortable distance. So out of curiosity, I googled the proper position and then looked at about 100 different images just now. They are all different. Some put their cheek where I put it, some do get pretty close. But nose touching the charging handle? That's very uncomfortable for me and doesn't make me feel like I'm shooting a rifle whatsoever but more of a handgun

 

[wigwamitus]

Well looks like you have the riser on there already. But if you took the riser off, it still looks like you could move the mount WAY forward and not have a problem.

Here is my .22LR with the q-14 mounted too far to the rear.

You can see I moved the stock back one notch. But I need to mount the q-14 farther forward so I do not have to extend the stock.
Walking around for 2 hours, with the rifle pulled up most of the time, having the stock 100% collapsed causes less muscle fatigue as my arms are closer to my body and not extended. I don't care what it "feels like" ... pistol ... wigwam or ugumbugum ... I want the stock fully collapsed to minimize muscle fatigue!

I always kept the stock all the way out

So collapse that stock all the way in and you'll be fine

==
As to "zero changes with refocus" ... not sure whether that happens with the q-14 or not ... but then I wouldn't know ... I don't change the focus !!

I do constantly play with it

Stop that behavior and you should be much better off!!

 

[JPK]

Even with the stock extended out that far, with the Patrol mounted so far rearward I would be hitting it when the rifle is shouldered, let alone off of a tripod, when the rifle is often a little lower and so head a bit more forward. I will post a photo of my rifles with the Patrol and MK II mounted. I have less extension on the stock as you do, and I shoot 14 7/8" length of pull shotguns and 14 5/8" bolt rifles, both of which are about an inch longer than typical factory rifle or shotgun measurements.

With the Patrol focused at infinity there is no reason to mess with the focus, it won't really improve clarity or focus until the target is pretty close, I think the inside range of "infinity" is like 18yds. If your target is fuzzy then you don't have the focus right. Poor conditions lead to loss of resolution and detail, but the target shouldn't be fuzzy, unless maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to convey.

A Bultler Creek cap would attach semi permanently to the objective focus ring via friction and has a flip cap feature. It makes NUC'ing the Patrol (or MK II) a simple, quick, one handed action - and the lens must be well covered to achieve a successful NUC. And yes, the witness mark is to be able to return the scope to zero if the focus ring gets turned.

(This brings up a question... Perhaps your fuzzy target was the result of an insufficiently frequent NUC'ing schedule? When first turned on, the Patrol (and MK II) require frequent NUC'ing or the image deteriorates. The Patrol and MK II and all current military thermal scopes require manual NUC'ing. As the units warm up they require less frequent NUC'ing, but if I have the opportunity I do a fresh NUC before shooting.)

JPK

 

[JPK]

Fwiw, Wiggy, I like my stock out some. Three clicks I think.

 

[wigwamitus]

Yup, I put a Butler Creek on my q-14 also and makes the FFC activity much easier. Flip it down ... run the FFC, flip it up.

 

[wigwamitus]

Fwiw, Wiggy, I like my stock out some. Three clicks I think.

haha ... I like my stock in the proper position for what I am doing !!! (hence it is ADJUSTABLE !!! )

For prone shooting I extend it 3+ clicks ... but for walking around scanning with the q-14 on there and popping rats ... I like to minimize the extension to minimize the muscle fatigue.

I do try to setup the optics to where I don't have to extend the stock to get best eye relief. That isn't always possible if using clipons.

Ultimately best stock extension depends on position and purpose!

 

[Louis Richards]

Wig I think you misunderstood me. I am trying to achieve the opposite. I want to keep the stock as far out as possible. I don't want to collapse the stock. When mounted on the factory rail, the stock has to be fully collapsed in order for my eye to hit the and that's what I'm trying to avoid. That's not really a riser, but a rail extension so that I can move the scope more towards the back so that I do not have to collapse the stock.

I didn't know that NUC had to be done in darkness and that's what the confusion was. Now I understand.

I didn't have a fuzzy picture, I was just saying that even if I did it wouldnt matter. The picture I had was clear. Though there were some inconsistency in the view. To say some dark patches in the middle.

The one thing that really concerned me was a double picture. I could see a duplicate image of the main image in a much lighter version at the top of the screen. A double image. Almost like a reflection of it. I couldn't get rid of it without turning the unit on and off and then it went away.

 

[JPK]

The photo below shows the Patrol and the MK II mounted as far rearward as the receiver rail allows. In practice, the stocks on the rifle with the Patrol and the rifle with the MK II are one position too short for use in the field, where some circumstances have you crawling the stock, at least with the thermals mounted that far back. I managed to cut myself on the ocular of the MK II Monday night with the stock in the position shown. Last night I hunted with the Patrol, and one position further out was fine.

Remember - I shoot really long shotgun and bolt rifle stocks - a full inch or more than typical.

The reason I mount the thermals that far back is because there can't be any mistake reinstalling a thermal that has been taken off a rifle, they are both as far back as the receiver rail will allow. Moreover, the Patrol can be used as a scanner and then rifle mounted in the dark by feel, without making a mistake. I have a rubber rail "stop" in front of where the Patrol mounts to further aid in-the-dark-installation.



Here is a close up on the MK II's position, as far rearward as it will go, which results in the same ocular position as the Patrol when the Patrol is mounted as far back as it will go using the UNV DLOC mount.



Hope this helps.

JPK

 

[JPK]

Wig I think you misunderstood me. I am trying to achieve the opposite. I want to keep the stock as far out as possible. I don't want to collapse the stock. When mounted on the factory rail, the stock has to be fully collapsed in order for my eye to hit the and that's what I'm trying to avoid. That's not really a riser, but a rail extension so that I can move the scope more towards the back so that I do not have to collapse the stock.

I didn't know that NUC had to be done in darkness and that's what the confusion was. Now I understand.

I didn't have a fuzzy picture, I was just saying that even if I did it wouldnt matter. The picture I had was clear. Though there were some inconsistency in the view. To say some dark patches in the middle.

The one thing that really concerned me was a double picture. I could see a duplicate image of the main image in a much lighter version at the top of the screen. A double image. Almost like a reflection of it. I couldn't get rid of it without turning the unit on and off and then it went away.

Why you would want to shoot an AR with the stock extended so far back is lost on me, even though, as I have written, I like really long bolt rifle and shotgun stocks.

Yes, NUC has to be done always, day or night, whatever weather, thought the better the thermal conditions the less degradation between NUC's.

The double image was the result of a failed NUC, one performed without a cap on the lens or without the lens otherwise adequately covered.

Note the Butler Creek lens covers on both the Patrol and the MK II in the first photo and in the one on the MK II below.

[BTW, I am a lefty, that is why the remote battery pack is mounted on the left side of my 6.8.]



JPK

 

[wigwamitus]

I use rail clips, to solve the problem of consistent mounting, by feel, in the dark. These are little plastic gizmos sold by Larue, 72 to the pack. Doubt I'll ever need another pack! I have several of them on most of my top rails marking where various optics go, so I can mount by feel in the dark. Then I don't have to de-optimize other aspects to get same consistency.
Just went out with .223 wylde and q-14 and realized I am already in the NTCH position ... and with the stock completely collapsed, it isn't touching my shoulder. So the q-14 is mounted fine, but if I want the stock touching my shoulder I do have to extend it by one noch.
That being said with suppressor and optic up there, even the half pound optic, my support arm gets tired if in continuous scan mode. I can drop it down for a few second, but never know what I'll be missing. I was just going out to get the mail.
Saw three critters, a "something" which I saw for 2s and could not find again (it was moving) ... and a skunk, which I think I got, but I couldn't find it either, it might have fallen in the creek, but I sure smelled it! And I don't want to get too close to skunks to find out I missed!
Third was a rabbit at 50yds, it moved, I missed, did not hold down far enough and then I couldn't see it again.
Carrying the mail and balancing the rifle and even having the change the battery was using up a lot of hands!
Going to get the mail around here is a busy activity!

Basically from prone I will extend as needed to get proper eye relief. But if moving and standing type shooting I want to minimize stock extension to reduce muscle fatigue.

 

[wigwamitus]

... I don't want to collapse the stock. ...

I believe you don't want to - you just got to wrench yourself out of that "want" !!!