Just pulled the trigger on an IR Patrol
- Thread starter Louis Richards
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wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
Yes he did ... per dumbass shooter guy's (dasg) insistance ... (not Ident ... though dasg mentioned them several times, in regards PVS-15) ... but Pete was also mentioned ... and Pete was able to meet his wants ... it took some time to work it all out ... and the world is not a perfect place ... but dasg thinks the MOD3 and IR-PATROL are very close matches to James' needs ... regardless of his wants ... and hopes James will determine this is the case once he reaches his new terrain and can really try them out!!!
The problem with Mod 3's is the inability to swing one side out of the way. My predator hunting bud had 15's and they were better but didn't give either side the range of motion that either a Wilcox or IC dual PVS 14 bridge does. The Patrol's shortcoming is the mount, but that is fixed with the DLoc mount from UNV.
JPK
JPK
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
That only a problem if you THINK it is a problem !!!
James insisted on getting "goggles" ... I never found out why ... but he was 1000% clear on that. At one point he was about to get some gen2 goggles and I felt it was my "duty" to intervene on behalf of truth and justice and all that is right with the world!!!
We talked about the pro and con of 2xpvs-14s in a dual mount versus fixed "goggles" like the PVS-15 ... that's where I pulled ident into the discussion as they show pricing for pvs-15s close to half that of ****. But I was aware of the MOD3 ... and so I also pulled in Pete. The MOD3 at least offered the ability to PRY the two units apart and use them as monoculars, so at least I wound up with some consolation.
I too value the flexibility of dual pvs-14s and don't think a pair of fixed collimated tubes is worth the cost in flexibility to me!
When James first arrived here, he had a Zeus, 75mm, 3x, 640(30) (IIRC) the same unit I had ... except James was using it as a handheld monocular! That's how I could tell he didn't really have what he needed.
So he got the MOD3 and the IR-Patrol and at least I think he is much closer to what he needs, but as he gets more experience, his needs/wants will evolve.
(btw, I think most of this discussion is in the "practicing" thread ... we did it publically!
James insisted on getting "goggles" ... I never found out why ... but he was 1000% clear on that. At one point he was about to get some gen2 goggles and I felt it was my "duty" to intervene on behalf of truth and justice and all that is right with the world!!!
We talked about the pro and con of 2xpvs-14s in a dual mount versus fixed "goggles" like the PVS-15 ... that's where I pulled ident into the discussion as they show pricing for pvs-15s close to half that of ****. But I was aware of the MOD3 ... and so I also pulled in Pete. The MOD3 at least offered the ability to PRY the two units apart and use them as monoculars, so at least I wound up with some consolation.
I too value the flexibility of dual pvs-14s and don't think a pair of fixed collimated tubes is worth the cost in flexibility to me!
When James first arrived here, he had a Zeus, 75mm, 3x, 640(30) (IIRC) the same unit I had ... except James was using it as a handheld monocular! That's how I could tell he didn't really have what he needed.
So he got the MOD3 and the IR-Patrol and at least I think he is much closer to what he needs, but as he gets more experience, his needs/wants will evolve.
(btw, I think most of this discussion is in the "practicing" thread ... we did it publically!
Louis Richards
LSB Member
3 rifle system.... Geez
Louis Richards
LSB Member
Because I only want night vision as a navigation tool. Not for any kind of shooting. I think that's severely underestimated in a lot of the threads. To me, night vision is not only just about acquisition, but about moving around. No other system but the mod three offers me the capability of moving at night with my own eyes as if it was daytime.
Collomation is everything to me, there's not really anything that I cannot do. All these other systems that everyone has, prevents something really simple, that is running through the woods at night and avoiding obstacles. Being able to run full speed through the dark of night, jump into a car with no headlights, and take off to me is such a major advantage, I don't see any other way to go.
Plus I have the advantage of separating them, best of all worlds , so it's win-win to me. But everything in this world is intent. What do you intend on doing with them? I can't help but feel any other way, that night vision is used to see at night, which means move at night, which means to navigate at night.
It's not always about sitting still in the bushes waiting to shoot a target. Sometimes it's about being shot back at, and having to haul ass being able to quickly move through unfamiliar terrain at night, and not be seen, is the greatest advantage of all in my world.
Almost all military excursions, where they are getting ready to come down on something, all have goggles, has to be a reason for that. I think it's because they are moving and running and ducking and hiding and dashing.
Collomation is everything to me, there's not really anything that I cannot do. All these other systems that everyone has, prevents something really simple, that is running through the woods at night and avoiding obstacles. Being able to run full speed through the dark of night, jump into a car with no headlights, and take off to me is such a major advantage, I don't see any other way to go.
Plus I have the advantage of separating them, best of all worlds , so it's win-win to me. But everything in this world is intent. What do you intend on doing with them? I can't help but feel any other way, that night vision is used to see at night, which means move at night, which means to navigate at night.
It's not always about sitting still in the bushes waiting to shoot a target. Sometimes it's about being shot back at, and having to haul ass
being able to quickly move through unfamiliar terrain at night, and not be seen, is the greatest advantage of all in my world.Almost all military excursions, where they are getting ready to come down on something, all have goggles, has to be a reason for that. I think it's because they are moving and running and ducking and hiding and dashing.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
I just paired down from a 10 rifle system to an 8 rifle system and I am happy
I realize I can't take them all out with me at the same time ... but I believe they all have a unique role to play!
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I wanna see you run through my woods at night at slide into home base after 300yds of running through woods so thick you can barely make .0625 mph during the day ... and across the creek which is 12 feet deep in some spots today ... and up Turkey bluff a straight up 150 foot rock climb .. and then through some more woods out into the clear ... running at full speed ... got to see it !!! Even in the day got to see it!!!
If I sold you on collimation to that extent ... shame on me!!!
My MKIEB aren't even collimated ... and I had surgery to try to make it happen when I was 6 y/o !!
Some people like a pvs-14 on each eye to help them "balance" ... others like one eye "unaided" ... so they have a natural NV eye ... I'm more in that school. I have a dual mount and I've enjoyed running dual pvs-14 side by side ... and if I was driving a vehicle with glass and carrying passengers ... I would wear my duals. If I am riding my 4-wheeler or moving at night on foot ... I prefer 14 on one eye and thermal on the other ... see the critters ... see the terrain ...
But yes, you wanted goggles and you got them. As to whether you NEED them ... we will see .. once you really get to test them in field conditions .. running through the woods at full speed !!! (I hope you got that warranty paper handy!!!
)I can tell you that any of the 15', Mod 3's or dual PVS 14's using the Wicox or IC bridge with the correct IC arms provides colomation, you could run through the woods safely with any of them.
Moreover, the acquisition capability of NV is poor compared to thermal. The only real advantage NV has over thermal is navigation, in particular depth perception, especially when wearing some type of bino.
Yes Mod 3's can be separated, so can dual PVS 14's. With PVS 15's and dual PVS 14's using the Wilcox or IC bridge one side can be swung out of the way so a thermal spotter can be used, or a thermal or NV scope while the other eye still has the benefit of NV.
I'll just reiterate that most nights you will see more over all with thermal than NV. Light brush, High humidity not so much, but then NVD sucks in fog, rain, snow. If thermal provided the depth perception of NV, NV would be about obsolete.
It's definitely time to get out there and try your gear.
JPK
Moreover, the acquisition capability of NV is poor compared to thermal. The only real advantage NV has over thermal is navigation, in particular depth perception, especially when wearing some type of bino.
Yes Mod 3's can be separated, so can dual PVS 14's. With PVS 15's and dual PVS 14's using the Wilcox or IC bridge one side can be swung out of the way so a thermal spotter can be used, or a thermal or NV scope while the other eye still has the benefit of NV.
I'll just reiterate that most nights you will see more over all with thermal than NV. Light brush, High humidity not so much, but then NVD sucks in fog, rain, snow. If thermal provided the depth perception of NV, NV would be about obsolete.
It's definitely time to get out there and try your gear.
JPK
Louis Richards
LSB Member
"If I sold you on collimation to that extent ... shame on me"
You DID!!! You preached collimation over and over and over and what an advantage it was. But why the shame? To the extent that I can navigate? Absolutely you did and I don't understand why you're backtracking or second-guessing yourself..?
Everything you said about it is true and I don't need to target shoot to be able to test out moving around at night with them. In fact, that is the last thing I want to do with them, that's why I have my patrol!
I don't know about sliding into home base on your land, but surely, I will be able to out run you with my goggles! But since you're probably coming for a visit, we can actually test that one out!!! LoL
Still, I don't see what the disagreement is about? I have a patrol? I'm not advocating using night vision in place of patrol. It sounds like that's what everyone thinks for some reason. If that were the case, I wouldn't have purchased a patrol. So there's no reason to keep saying that thermal will out do night vision, of course it will, that's why I bought it.
In ALL of my posts from the very beginning, it was always for the main purpose of navigating. This is how it all got started, with wigwam saying great, but how are you going to get around at night?. Yes, Wigwam always recommend me getting dual 14's but that wasnt my style. I didn't see an advantage then, nor do I now, as compared to a mod three that can be separated and become exactly what everyone has now, The question is not why did I, but why didn't everyone else?
I have the distinct advantage of keeping them together, being collomated and having the best of both worlds. The difference between what I have and everyone else has, is I have a much bigger advantage. Anytime I want to run duals, all I have to do is separate it into two separate units, mounting the patrol on one eye and one half on the other. I personally am not sure why everyone thinks there's a disadvantage to them, when my unit provides the best of both worlds and when separated can do the exact same thing that everyone is recommending??.
I'm not sure I understand why everyone is so down on being able to navigate at night? What's wrong with being able to move around at night much better than anyone that has a different set up? Surely, no one can possibly dispute my goggles giving the absolute best possible set up for navigation. Are people not planning on moving at night?
I don't think anyone could possibly give me one advantage of running dual 14's, compared to my mod 3 when separate. It is only a plus to be able to convert them to goggles, never a negative
You DID!!! You preached collimation over and over and over and what an advantage it was. But why the shame? To the extent that I can navigate? Absolutely you did and I don't understand why you're backtracking or second-guessing yourself..?
Everything you said about it is true and I don't need to target shoot to be able to test out moving around at night with them. In fact, that is the last thing I want to do with them, that's why I have my patrol!
I don't know about sliding into home base on your land, but surely, I will be able to out run you with my goggles! But since you're probably coming for a visit, we can actually test that one out!!! LoL
Still, I don't see what the disagreement is about? I have a patrol? I'm not advocating using night vision in place of patrol. It sounds like that's what everyone thinks for some reason. If that were the case, I wouldn't have purchased a patrol. So there's no reason to keep saying that thermal will out do night vision, of course it will, that's why I bought it.
In ALL of my posts from the very beginning, it was always for the main purpose of navigating. This is how it all got started, with wigwam saying great, but how are you going to get around at night?. Yes, Wigwam always recommend me getting dual 14's but that wasnt my style. I didn't see an advantage then, nor do I now, as compared to a mod three that can be separated and become exactly what everyone has now, The question is not why did I, but why didn't everyone else?
I have the distinct advantage of keeping them together, being collomated and having the best of both worlds. The difference between what I have and everyone else has, is I have a much bigger advantage. Anytime I want to run duals, all I have to do is separate it into two separate units, mounting the patrol on one eye and one half on the other. I personally am not sure why everyone thinks there's a disadvantage to them, when my unit provides the best of both worlds and when separated can do the exact same thing that everyone is recommending??.
I'm not sure I understand why everyone is so down on being able to navigate at night? What's wrong with being able to move around at night much better than anyone that has a different set up? Surely, no one can possibly dispute my goggles giving the absolute best possible set up for navigation. Are people not planning on moving at night?
I don't think anyone could possibly give me one advantage of running dual 14's, compared to my mod 3 when separate. It is only a plus to be able to convert them to goggles, never a negative
Louis Richards
LSB Member
"I can tell you that any of the 15', Mod 3's or dual PVS 14's using the Wicox or IC bridge with the correct IC arms provides colomation, you could run through the woods safely with any of them."
But that's what I have now do I not? I already have collimation. I am soooooo confused. As usual LOL
But that's what I have now do I not? I already have collimation. I am soooooo confused. As usual
LOLLouis Richards
LSB Member
It only lives for you, if you keep sticking your head in the door... So why stick it if you're not interested? Speaking of sticking it...
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Louis Richards
LSB Member
I'm not unhappy with anything I have bought. I'm totally satisfied. In fact, the only reason I am entertaining change is because JPK got me thinking about other possibilities. Gave me some good ideas. Different direction to head maybe. But to date, I haven't bought anything that I'm unhappy with and would label it a "mistake". So I'm not sure what lead you to that conclusion?
A large part of why I made no mistakes was Wigwam pretty much lead me to buy the right stuff from the start. I pretty much followed his advice on everything except the mod3 versus 2-14's
TEXASLAWMAN
Lone Star Boars Owner
LSB TURKEY BUZZARD PRESERVATION SOCIETY
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LoneStarBoars Supporter
This is the same guy that thinks a 338 pulsar 50mm looks better than a 75mm zeus hd 640 unit? Sorry I can not get past that statement it blew my mind. Thermals have come a long way and the top few companies are all producing very good units now obviously I'm partial to Armasight I've listed my argument for that many times so no reason to list it all again here. Hell I'm pro staff for armasight If I did not belive I them I would not put my name behind the product.
But statements like that raise red flags for me.
I've obviously been slacking and not keeping up with this thread. Now I'm watching.
I has been some entertaining reading?? BANG BANG!!
Louis Richards
LSB Member
I'll stay out of that one, I'm not experienced enough to know. But I'm sure Wigwam will be at no loss for words and will adamantly defend his position !!! LOL
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
If anyone bothered to read the words I wrote ... you would know better ...
I had 4 neighbors ... not nv/thermal users ... just 4 neighbors ... look thru both apex xd50a, 2x, 50mm, 384(50) and zeus, 3x, 75mm, 640(30) ... none of them had any idea what a "zeus" or a "pulsar" might be. ALL of them said the Pulsar had the clearest image, their words are mentioned in more detail in the "practicing" thread.
I said they were about the same ... I said the Zeus had an advantage at longer distances.
The Apex nucs often in the first five minutes, the Zeus does not. This gives the Apex an advantage.
The Zeus doesn't focus as well on close up objects ... the 4 testers were all looking at objects (including some rats) all within 100yds.
The default brightness and contrast settings also favor the Apex, at short distances, IMHO.
After looking through the Apex xd50a 2x 384(50), the Zeus 3x 75mm, 640(30) and the IRD Mk2 640(60) ... I would rank the mk2 as #1 on image detail ... able to see through some woods on my land and into the next pasture out to 800yds ... something no other unit I've ever looked through can do ... all the other units can't see thru those woods on the other side of my alfalfa patch.
I think the Zeus beats the xd50a beyond 300yds ... but I think the xd50a beats the zeus inside 300yds ... net/net ... they are about the same to my eyes ... not my neighbors eyes ... they all picked the xd50a hands down ... but to my eyes about the same ... BUT the xd50a has a usable reticle ... with hashmarks ... due to having 4 moa and 3.4 moa reticles (hashmarks) and the PIP feature. The Zeus 75mm, 640 had none such.
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BTW, I let neighbors look thru IRD Mk2 and compare to xd50a ... in the first few mins they picked the xd50a (again those rapid initial nucs) ... but after I nuced the ird mk2 4 times ... they liked the mk2 better.
==
Anyway, Frank has made it clear that my experience is no longer valued here, so I will not push the issue further. But if Todd would engage, I at least wanted to set the record straight from my perspective.
I did not say it was of any value, I did say talk to a hunter IF that is what you are going to use the Thermal for. Not a slam at you at all but I do read your practicing threads with much interest and they are written great with much good info. I just see no comparison to what a hunter requires and after killing thousands of animals I thought he should talk to Todd for an experienced opinion. Please take no offense
TEXASLAWMAN
Lone Star Boars Owner
LSB TURKEY BUZZARD PRESERVATION SOCIETY
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LoneStarBoars Supporter
If anyone bothered to read the words I wrote ... you would know better ...
I had 4 neighbors ... not nv/thermal users ... just 4 neighbors ... look thru both apex xd50a, 2x, 50mm, 384(50) and zeus, 3x, 75mm, 640(30) ... none of them had any idea what a "zeus" or a "pulsar" might be. ALL of them said the Pulsar had the clearest image, their words are mentioned in more detail in the "practicing" thread.
I said they were about the same ... I said the Zeus had an advantage at longer distances.
The Apex nucs often in the first five minutes, the Zeus does not. This gives the Apex an advantage.
The Zeus doesn't focus as well on close up objects ... the 4 testers were all looking at objects (including some rats) all within 100yds.
The default brightness and contrast settings also favor the Apex, at short distances, IMHO.
After looking through the Apex xd50a 2x 384(50), the Zeus 3x 75mm, 640(30) and the IRD Mk2 640(60) ... I would rank the mk2 as #1 on image detail ... able to see through some woods on my land and into the next pasture out to 800yds ... something no other unit I've ever looked through can do ... all the other units can't see thru those woods on the other side of my alfalfa patch.
I think the Zeus beats the xd50a beyond 300yds ... but I think the xd50a beats the zeus inside 300yds ... net/net ... they are about the same to my eyes ... not my neighbors eyes ... they all picked the xd50a hands down ... but to my eyes about the same ... BUT the xd50a has a usable reticle ... with hashmarks ... due to having 4 moa and 3.4 moa reticles (hashmarks) and the PIP feature. The Zeus 75mm, 640 had none such.
==
BTW, I let neighbors look thru IRD Mk2 and compare to xd50a ... in the first few mins they picked the xd50a (again those rapid initial nucs) ... but after I nuced the ird mk2 4 times ... they liked the mk2 better.
==
Anyway, Frank has made it clear that my experience is no longer valued here, so I will not push the issue further. But if Todd would engage, I at least wanted to set the record straight from my perspective.
First none of your neighbors have ever looked through the Zeus HD because I have the only ones in existence on the planet and that is where the comparison was made. Second the zeus you had was the old firmware that washed out the background with the tau2 core. If you have noticed or maybe not noticed I have been very quiet about the standard line, in fact you have not seen me make a video with one since the tau2 release only the pro line. But now the standard line is what a thermal should be with this latest firmware update, you will see me using them quite often.
Admittedly I was very interested in looking at the pulsar units because I am hearing things like "they crush the 640 units". Now I have used them side by side with the other units looking through them with my own eyes. I have used them with people associated with, and people not associated with brands. I have used them with people very knowledgeable in thermal, and first time users. I have shown them to peole who know and do not know what a "zeus" or a "pulsar" may be. 100% hands down there is no comparison. The standard zeus and the hd zeus have "crushed" the pulsar to use the phrase I heard used.
Now in saying that the pulsar units are very nice and they are very good at their price point, this is in no way a negative reflection on them. They are in a different class it would be like comparing a work truck to a race car on the race track.
Your comment was that race car sure is fast it almost beat the work truck.
"their words are mentioned in more detail in the "practicing" thread." My mind was numb after the first page of that thread.
'Anyway, Frank has made it clear that my experience is no longer valued here, so I will not push the issue further."
Frank is not running anything here, I am. So I do not know why you are worried about his opinion.
I have this place for people to share knowledge, experience, and to help people make educated decisions on very expensive equipment. Everyone has their own perceived what is best, and what works best for their application. No one unit is going to be best for everyone. But when a claim has been made that is not even close to reality I will set the record straight. If that gets you panties in a wad so be it. Remember I have seen you in action.....