Practicing with Night Vision

Ratdog68

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About a year and a half ago, I was issued a FLIR hand held unit. The one who ordered it was determined to order TWO of the cheapest ones available (against suggestion to pony up more and buy only one). I had opportunity to test it out one winter day. Had a couple of polar bears at about 150 yds. I was unable to see them at ALL in the view finder, even though I had eyes on 'em w/o an optic. I was careful to attempt viewing them in the open air, and NOT from behind glass. Money wasted on those cheap units.

Now, with the high end thermal camera we had on the island (viewable ONLY from inside camp), we were easily able to watch/track these bears (same bears/time). Image was good too, you KNEW you were seeing a polar bear.
 

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
Just curious what planet you live on RD ? Camps and Islands and "issued a FLIR" ... doesn't sound like u live in the middle of Brookklyn :D
Probably everyone else knows your story ... but I missed the memo !
 

JPK

LSB Active Member
FWIW, UNV Tyler posted a video of a sub zero (-13 to -17F, iirc) coyote hunt using IR Defense MK II scopes in response to an allegation by **** Victor that only NV worked in very low temps. All of the detail of the coyotes' fur you would expect at more reasonable temps remained visible.

I will try to find the video and post a link.

JPK
 

JPK

LSB Active Member
I think this is the one based on my recollection of the video, though there is no mention of the temps. It was in SD last winter, iirc.

They were using 100mm 640 Thor scopes, not IR MK II's. In addition, some of the detail from the coyotes' coats thermal returns is missing, but not much.


I need to speak with Tyler soon, and I'll ask him to confirm that this is the video.

JPK
 

Curly Shuffle

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Fur, guard hairs and down. The outside temps closest to the air will be the same ambient temps. Animals survive by trapping body temps and not letting the heat escape. Therefor some are going to show better than others? National Geographic 101!! BANG BANG!!
 

Curly Shuffle

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I can see your concern, but i honestly believe because I am in conditions always near 0 degrees that the animals show very little detail at that temperature. The animals cores are warm, 90F~ish but the outside hairs are going to be very close to the same as the relative air temperature. Even a large moose will be on the outside very close to the ambient air when its this cold.
Reverend!!
 

FrankT

Destin FL
LSB TURKEY BUZZARD PRESERVATION SOCIETY
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I still think that Predator is not set properly or something is wrong with it but like I said I have no experience at 0 degrees...I guess we will find out in the Spring.
 

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
Warranties and recoil ...

==
To me, from a purely scientific-logical perspective ... no matter what anyone says in writing or otherwise ... no matter who they are ... each shot through a rifle could bring down a device. The rifle could have a massive failure, the ammo could have a massive failure .. the mount could be loose, the rifle could bang in to another object etc. So while evidence of success of shooting a given rifle with a given device on it is good and could be considered an indicator, it cannot be a 100% guarantee that the next round will not cause a failure. It could be said that it provides evidence, but not that it proves what will happen in the future.

Same thing with a warranty. Most warranties on devices in our hobby have fine print that would allow the giver of the warranty to charge for repairs at their sole discretion. So really, we are "hoping" they will comply with what we think is the spirit of the warranty, but we do not know absolutely 100% for sure that they will. Armasight has treated me well with respect to warranties so far and I respect and appreciate that, but I do not take it for granted. They could have a change in management, they could change the informal policy at any moment and the next time I ask for a warranty repair they could say NO. So just like the next round might cause the device to fail, the next time I try to get a warranty repair I might get the NO answer. I could sue for breach of contract, but that might cost me more than the cost of the device to sue and win, so probably not worth it. And even if I win, the device won't be working in the mean time unless I pay the manufacturer to fix it anyway (probably voiding the law suit) or buy another device or repair the first one by other means.

Bottom line, there is no 100% certainty. But there is evidence both that a device has worked on a gun x-times and that a manufacturer has performed warranty repairs y-times.

Separate from that I do rely on people I trust. Maybe I am the only one who does, but that does not bother me. I do not require or even expect others to do as I do. I only do what I think is best for me based on my life experience. Isn't that what we all do? I don't take everything the people I trust say as 100% gospel and the people I trust would not want to be so taken. I do take their experience as more evidence of the probability of an event occurring ... I don't weigh such words as heavily as I do my own experience. But I do not automatically dismiss all evidence provided by others.
 
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wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
2016-02-06
2000-2130
40F
20 MPH W

Goal(s): Zero IR-laser on 5.56(14.5), Compare Pulsar Apex XD50A - 50mm, 2x, 384(50) and IR-Hunter Mk2, 35mm, 2.45x, 640(60).

Environment: We had a warm spell today with the temps get up to the mid 40s, but tonight the wind was also up. There were a few clouds in the sky but the stars were highly visible, with Orion overhead. The big dipper was to the North with the "dip" of the handle was pointing straight up and the handle straight down. I saw a mouse in a nearby wood pile.

Equipment: 5.56(14.5), Pulsar Apex 50mm, 2x, 384(50), Laser Max ir-laser, AAC-Mini, Vickers Sling, FLC xm193 55gr. Helmet with PVS-14 on left, Odin on right. 5.56(18), PIG saddle on Manfrotto, SPW556, IR-Hunter Mk2, 35mm, 2.45x, 640(60).

EUsenRlh.jpg


Activity: I staged all the gear into the garage for 30m before going out, with lens covers open (except the PVS-14) to get all items "acclimated". Then went out and setup the Manfrotto at 50yds from the zeroing target (in case I had time to zero). I then brought out the 5.56(18) and went thru three nucs (4 counting startup) in 5 mins. The system tells you to NUC by showing very visible horizonal "fuzzy" lines in the display (like 1950s TV getting bad reception :D ). And panned about, the farthest object I could see was cattle feeder on top of ridge 415yds from my position. I could also see a pile of gravel at 200yds and a tree line at 500yds. I then got the Pulsar and did the same panning about. I had to adjust the brightness down to mid-range, somehow it had gotten adjusted up to max. During this first comparison I thought the advantage went to theMk2 as the cattle feeder looked a little fuzzier in the Pulsar.

I then worked on zeroing the 5.56(14.5) ... adjusting this LM ir-laser with the tiny allen wrench and no co-witness is a pain. I got close, but ran out of time and still need some more time to fine tune things Sunday night.

Then back to comparing the Mk2 and the Pulsar. I nuced the Mk2 again ... and picked out the Cattle feeder at 415, the sides of two buildings in opposite directions at 50 and 70yds respectively, the gravel pile at 200yds and the treeline at 500yds. I noticer the Mk2 reticle would switch between white and black automatically as I panned through darker areas and lighter areas, that was a nice feature. I panned to each object and noted the image. And did this for each device. I was hard pressed to tell the difference. I then moved the 5.56(14.5) back into the house. When I came for the Mk2 I repeated the observations, but stayed on each object of insterst for much longer this time. By looking at the stationary image, I did think the mk2 was looking better this third time, but I didn't have the Pulsar to compare.
Perhaps the differences between the devices will show up more at longer distances. I need to take both out into the larger pastures. I can see for miles from some spots up there and these days some horsesare usually visible at an average of 800yds from atop one hill.

The Mk2 reticles are an issue. The one with useable subtensions had each subtension being 10 mils apart. At 500yds that would be 180 inches or 15 feet. One subtension is 15 feet at 500yds. Hum, not really usable. And I recall the straw that broke the cammel's back with the Zeus for me was the lack of a usable reticle. I could try the Mk2 in "clipon" mode, but with the 3-15x scope I would have on the 5.56(18) for day shooting, I need to run it at minimum 5x to use the half mil subtensions. So I would be zooming in on the pixels 5x which is a lot and I'd wind up with 2.45 * 5 = 12.25x magnification, quite a lot! I will try it, but I'm not optimistic. The lack of a usable reticle might again be the show stopper for an otherwise nice device. It's interesting, that the Mk2 19mm would be a better clipon as it only has 1.45x magnification.

The controls will take come getting used to but I found the nucing process to be easier than I'd been led to believe by others. I have no issue with the nucing process. This Mk2 came with butler creeks on the front and rear. I didn't try to zero it yet.

My requirements for this device will now be discussed. First some background. I am now aiming to wind up with 3 thermals. One helmet mounted spotter which can be used as a sight in a pinch. The Odin seems to satisfy that niche. And two rifle sights with one of them being usable at 500yds and beyond. Ideal magnification for the "long range" scope would be 3x ... and for the intermediate scope either 2x or 1.5x.
So far the Pulsar Apex 50mm,2x, 384(50) seems like a perfect entry for the intermediate scope. It is 2x and before tonight had the clearest thermal image I'd seen. The Pulsar has a reticle with 1 mil has marks. The hash marks are very close together, but there is a pic in pic function which creates a popup at the top of the display using a 10th of the display showing the center of the reticle and several hashmarks in all directions blown up 2x. This makes the reticle usable. This is why the Mk2 using 10 mil hash marks as otherwise the hashmarks would be too close together. Pulsar took the trouble to solve this problem and give us a usable reticle.
I tried the Pulsar 75mm, 3x, 384(50) ... but maybe it was a lemon or something. It had the worst thermal image I'd ever seen. One theory is that the display is overloaded by the processing and image capture of the front and middle ends. If I can't live with the Mk2, I might try the next 75mm Pulsar which has an OLED display instead of the LED display in the xd50A and xd75A. The xd75 has the OLED display. Or I could hang on to the Mk2 for now and upgrade to the rumored Pulsar 75mm when the real 640 version is comes out (late this year?) ... or even go back and look at the Apollo Pro 50mm.

After only one night, I would rate the menus and controls on the Mk2 as about as easy to use as on the Pulsar XD50A. They can certainly be used with gloves, which I could not say 100% with the Armasights. I could rarely NUC successfully with gloves on the Q-14. I can on the ODIN and the Apex XD50A and on the Mk2.

Mk2 vs XD50A
Image - slight improvement over XD50A
Controls - equal to XD50A
Reticles - inferior to XD50A
Battery cap - superior to XD50A
 

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
Got e-stamp for my e-form01 ... so now SBR out of jail !
Had to rezero mk2 on new host, but that is done. Now the 5.56(14.5) goes to shop to get its muzzle device un pin and welded ...
==
4ILY5PTh.jpg

==
5.56(10.5) with mk2 on top, laser lax ir-laser on front and acc-mini out front.
==

Still in jail:
Griffin Spartan (5.56)
Griffin Sportsman (7.62)
Turbodyne (.50bmg)
sbr lower (2nd one)
 

JPK

LSB Active Member
That's a great looking, handy set up!

Congrats on the stamp, hope the others come quick.

JPK
 

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
I will wind up with:
one suppressor for .50BMG
two 7.62 suppressors (which can be stepped down to work with 5.56 or even .22LR
three 5.56 suppressors (which can work with .22lr)

Two of the 5.56 suppressors support FA ... but no current plans for FA capability ... the price just keeps going up and up ... since december ... m16a1 $25k now $28k ...

For firearms I will wind up with
1 x .50BMG bolt gun
1 x .300WM bolt gun
1 x 6.5(18) grendel upper
1 x 5.56(18) upper
1 x 5.56(14.5) upper
1 x 5.56(10.5) upper
1 x .22lr(16) upper
1 x m930 12g
1 x m1911 .45acp
2 x sbr lowers
3 x non-sbr lowers
oh and I will still have the .308WIN(18) bolt gun as my "test" rifle but I would not use that for hunting or any other serious activity ... insufficient reliability.

I'd still like to have a long barrel .22lr pistol to carry with me around the ranch ... a buddy has one and he out shots me at 100yds ... his long barrel .22lr with him in kneeing teacup ... versus my m1911 with me in standing teacup ... so if I get any other firearm ... a long barrel .22lr pistol is high on the list!
 

JPK

LSB Active Member
What makes the 308 bolt rifle unreliable. Off all of the rifles you have, that one should be the top for reliability.

JPK
 

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
The magazines.
It is a ruger "yute" model ... RAR ... 6 pounds ... 36 inches ... pencil barrel ... 18 inch barrel ... but the problem is the magazines ... to keep them at about 80% reliability (of feeding the next round) I need to clean them (blast brake cleaner into them and then compressed air) every time I use them ... and still only 80% reliability. If the mag fails to feed ... you pull it out and bang it on your helmet and put it back in and roll the dice for another 80% attempt.
As a single shot it would be fine.
This issue is discussed on the ruger forum ... the ruger is my only remaining non-custom built rifle ... I bought several factory rifles, but all the other ones are sold now. I kept the ruger because I think it is worth more as a test rifle than what I could get for it :) ... don't like factory rifles ... they don't work for me ...
 

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
Also due to the pencil barrel, this is the only rifle I own which can't take one of my suppressors. But that is not really an issue since 95% of the ammo I run through the gun is either:
DM18A1B1 7.62, 40000fps, 10gr
175gr SMK subsonic
Hornady 125gr SST lite load

none of which require a suppressor (for me)

only when shooting xm80 or full speed AMAX 168gr do I need ear pro with this rifle.

It isn't the rifle's fault ... it is the play pen quality magazines ... as a single shot with real ammo it is good at least out to 500yds ... the farthest I've tried it. That is 2 moa prone bones only ...
 

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
2016-02-14
1100-1300
30F
05 MPH W

Goals: Check .300WM out to 500yds.

Environment: Cool and sunny a few clouds, light breeze from the West.

Equipment: .300WM, new Burris 3-15x scr-mil, 220gr SMK, Barnes load. LRF, Kestrel.

Activity: Set up target.

The setup rifle at 40yds. Per AB, with 2700MV a 40yd zero should be a 257yd zero with my conditions and a -7 degree down angle.

G01 - 1 rd - 40yds ... 4 inches low and right, cranked up 2 mils and left 2 mils.

G02 - 1 rd - 40yds ... half inch high, centered. No change.

G03 - 1 rd - 40yds ... quarter inch right, 1/8 inch low. No change.

xXubg8eh.jpg


Then proceeded to 257yds.


G11 - 2 rds - 257yds ... 6 inches low and right. So is MV not 2700? I walked down to 240yds. Also, to account for wind, I decided to hold .3 mils left.

G12 - 2 rds = 240yds ... 3 inches down and right. Still low, so walked to 230yds and set mv to 2600 and decided to hold .5 mils left for wind.

G13 - 3 rds - 230yds ... all three rounds in the X ring, group center 2 inches low and half inch left.

Then proceeded to 491yds.

mf7G6z3h.jpg


Checked the wind, had 6.2 avg 60 degrees off bullet path but spikes to 11.8 for two periods of about 10s each during the 2m. AB said to hold up 2.2 mils and left 0.5 mils.

G21 - 3 rds - 491yds ... center of group 10 inches high and 5 inches right. I went back to 2700MV and looked like I would drop as needed ... wind 5.9 mph held 0.5 mil left. The wind did spike up during the 3 rds being sent.

G22 - 2 rds - 491yds ... center of group 1 inches high and 2 inches right.

4ntzRC5h.jpg


Results/Summary: So some factor is unable to predict that with 2700MV the second zero is at 230yds, which is where it is. Note after zeroing at 40yds, I did not change anything on the gun. I only changed the MV in AB. Based on the results at 500yds (491yds) the real MV seems to be 2700. I had noted this discrepancy previously. So DOPE card will just have to note the discrepancy.
Rare day shoot! Now back to the chain sawing ... :)
 

FrankT

Destin FL
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So do you not have any animals to kill out there? I thought maybe Brian's great mouse hunt would have encouraged you!
 

Ratdog68

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I'm beginning to wonder whether the little critters have carried His Wiggyiness off into the weeds. Been almost a month since we had an update.
 
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