Practicing with Night Vision
- Thread starter wigwamitus
- Start date
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
I sure that would work fine on my droid!! 
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
I will have to look it to it. I can take video with DVR on the thermal, but not (yet) with i^2 devices.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
2014-12-07
2030-2230
40F
5 mph SW
Goal: .22LR to 300yds.
Environment: Misty but not as bad as 2 nights ago. No moon, no starts, clouds on the ground, just a very dull glow in the these clouds. Intial average wind reading off Kestrel was 2.4 mph SSW, towards the end of the session, this had risen to 6.6 mph and shifted to SW. We essentially had a light rain and most of my gear was quite wet by the time I returned.
Equipment: .22LR with L&S 3-18s H58 scope, CO-LR and thermal and atlas bipod. LRF and 3x magnifier on belt pouches. .45acp in serpa. 3 mags with 6 rounds each Eley Match. Dual 14s on ballistic helmet. Starting point for .22LR dope card for Eley Match ammo.
Activity: Wanted to test dope card, so went back to 100yds and clicked down to 1.1 mils on the dial. Got two 9s, but was a bit to the right.
G01 - 2 rds - 100yds - 9 + 9 - avg 9
Decided to go to 150yds, so clicked up 24 clicks to 3.5 mils. I did this with red 3 lumen admin light.
G02 - 2 rds - 150yds - 6 + 7 - avg 6.5
Was way to the right. The wind was 2.4 210 degrees off bullet path, so decided to hold .3 mils left.
G03 - 2rds - 150yds - 8 + 8 - avg 8
A bit to the right but nice tight pair. I decided to go to 200yds, so I clicked up to 6.2 mils. I tried to do this by feel, and then checked with 3L light and was sitting on 6.5, so I backed down to 6.2.
G04 - 2rds - 200yds - 0 + 5 - avg 2.5
Way right, So decided to hold .5 mil left.
G05 - 2rds - 200yds - 6 + 5 = avg 5.5
Still way right, for some reason, I aimed high for both of these shots. I think the first was an accident, but I decided to aim the same spot the second time for consistency. I could feel the wind increasing, So I decided to hold 1 mil left.
G06 - 2rds - 200yds - 7 + 9 - avg 8
Acceptable, so on to 250yds. I cranked to 9.2 per the dope card. Note, I had never fired this, but in the house AB said this was the number, so I plugged it in to the dope card. Purpose now is to validate.
G07 - 2rds - 250yds - 0 + 0 - avg 0
Off the target low and right. I used my brain to calculate .5 mils up which I cranked. I figure I have 1085 MV in the AB, but I figured out how to read the Eley Match box and by batch is 1068, so I was wondering when that discrepancy would show up and I think it is now. We will try to resolve this with the AB data. Also based on 6.6 avg wind at 240, I decided to hold 1.8 (wanted to hold 66% of 2.6 which is almost 1.8).
G08 - 2rds - 250yds - 9 + 5 - avg 7
Wind died down before second shot and I didn't adjust. But elevation looks good. I had two rounds left, but decided to RTB. It was definitely light rain by now, PVS14s were barely functional, they were fogged up. Thermal was dead, CO-LR was fine. I was out of water. I had non-shooting things waiting to be done at the house. Too many negatives messing with my "fat" (nickname for "brain"). And I wanted to re-figure the elevation in AB. So I did RTB. I could hardly see the ground in front of me to drive the buggy. But I did and made it.
Results: I did not take the AB, I wanted to test using the dope chart and it worked fine for the previously validated data. Only at 250 was there an issue. I will re run the numbers with 1068 MV and see what it looks like. I am supposed to be switching to Eley Edge, but I might break open one more box of Eley Match to try to complete validation of this dope card out to 300yds.
The 3x magnifier helped me use the LRF out to 200yds. Each step out beyond 100yds, I also lased the tree at the 100yd FP, so I could use that as second reference for next spot. At 250yds, I had to rely on lasing to the 100yds FP tree.
Several groups of coyotes were around me at various times. I would pause, let them do their thing and then resume doing my thing.
Each trip, on foot, down to the target and back, I would mark the position with the red 3L light. I could only see this light from 5yds out.
I cranked the scope to 18x for shooting, but 3x was observing. This scope actually has parallax adjustments marked on the knob out to 200yds, so I used the 3L light to set those as well. After 200yds, it jumps to 500yds, so at 250yds, I had to "guess".
The Eley Match ammo is still amazing. Every round was at least on the paper. I thought this was going to be a low wind night, but it evolved in to a moderate wind night, relative to .22LR shooting.
I was under dressed. I only wore tee shirt and light jacket on top and I was "cold". I wore watch cap instead of balaklava and was cold up there as well. I wore wet suit pants and that was good, because the ground was wet and muddy. I should have wore wet suit to and balaklava.
I am going to have to finally apply the anti-fog juice, the 14s were barely usable in the last third of the evening.
The thermal could see the tree lines out to 500yds, as far as I can see from these FPs. So that was better than previous.
The LRF could lase out to 200yds with the 3x magnifier.
The scope streaked up, either on the front of the CO-LR or on the back of the day scope eye piece. I'll guess the later, since that part was facing more towards the wind. But I could see plenty clearly enough and on 3x I could see very well, despite the lack of light.
Pic of gear.
.22LR with L&S 3-18x H58 scope, CO-LR, Thermal on top for observation, atlas bipod, tee shirt underneath to keep mud off carpet. Three magazines, helmet with dual 14s, counterweight of 2x7rd m1911 mags, 3L RBGW light, 850W ir-illuminator, m1911 with CT ir-laser grips and 8+1 in serpa. 3L RBGW light in pocket. Kestrel around neck. LRF, 3x magnifier on belt pouches. One quart canteen.
2030-2230
40F
5 mph SW
Goal: .22LR to 300yds.
Environment: Misty but not as bad as 2 nights ago. No moon, no starts, clouds on the ground, just a very dull glow in the these clouds. Intial average wind reading off Kestrel was 2.4 mph SSW, towards the end of the session, this had risen to 6.6 mph and shifted to SW. We essentially had a light rain and most of my gear was quite wet by the time I returned.
Equipment: .22LR with L&S 3-18s H58 scope, CO-LR and thermal and atlas bipod. LRF and 3x magnifier on belt pouches. .45acp in serpa. 3 mags with 6 rounds each Eley Match. Dual 14s on ballistic helmet. Starting point for .22LR dope card for Eley Match ammo.
Activity: Wanted to test dope card, so went back to 100yds and clicked down to 1.1 mils on the dial. Got two 9s, but was a bit to the right.
G01 - 2 rds - 100yds - 9 + 9 - avg 9
Decided to go to 150yds, so clicked up 24 clicks to 3.5 mils. I did this with red 3 lumen admin light.
G02 - 2 rds - 150yds - 6 + 7 - avg 6.5
Was way to the right. The wind was 2.4 210 degrees off bullet path, so decided to hold .3 mils left.
G03 - 2rds - 150yds - 8 + 8 - avg 8
A bit to the right but nice tight pair. I decided to go to 200yds, so I clicked up to 6.2 mils. I tried to do this by feel, and then checked with 3L light and was sitting on 6.5, so I backed down to 6.2.
G04 - 2rds - 200yds - 0 + 5 - avg 2.5
Way right, So decided to hold .5 mil left.
G05 - 2rds - 200yds - 6 + 5 = avg 5.5
Still way right, for some reason, I aimed high for both of these shots. I think the first was an accident, but I decided to aim the same spot the second time for consistency. I could feel the wind increasing, So I decided to hold 1 mil left.
G06 - 2rds - 200yds - 7 + 9 - avg 8
Acceptable, so on to 250yds. I cranked to 9.2 per the dope card. Note, I had never fired this, but in the house AB said this was the number, so I plugged it in to the dope card. Purpose now is to validate.
G07 - 2rds - 250yds - 0 + 0 - avg 0
Off the target low and right. I used my brain to calculate .5 mils up which I cranked. I figure I have 1085 MV in the AB, but I figured out how to read the Eley Match box and by batch is 1068, so I was wondering when that discrepancy would show up and I think it is now. We will try to resolve this with the AB data. Also based on 6.6 avg wind at 240, I decided to hold 1.8 (wanted to hold 66% of 2.6 which is almost 1.8).
G08 - 2rds - 250yds - 9 + 5 - avg 7
Wind died down before second shot and I didn't adjust. But elevation looks good. I had two rounds left, but decided to RTB. It was definitely light rain by now, PVS14s were barely functional, they were fogged up. Thermal was dead, CO-LR was fine. I was out of water. I had non-shooting things waiting to be done at the house. Too many negatives messing with my "fat" (nickname for "brain"). And I wanted to re-figure the elevation in AB. So I did RTB. I could hardly see the ground in front of me to drive the buggy. But I did and made it.
Results: I did not take the AB, I wanted to test using the dope chart and it worked fine for the previously validated data. Only at 250 was there an issue. I will re run the numbers with 1068 MV and see what it looks like. I am supposed to be switching to Eley Edge, but I might break open one more box of Eley Match to try to complete validation of this dope card out to 300yds.
The 3x magnifier helped me use the LRF out to 200yds. Each step out beyond 100yds, I also lased the tree at the 100yd FP, so I could use that as second reference for next spot. At 250yds, I had to rely on lasing to the 100yds FP tree.
Several groups of coyotes were around me at various times. I would pause, let them do their thing and then resume doing my thing.
Each trip, on foot, down to the target and back, I would mark the position with the red 3L light. I could only see this light from 5yds out.
I cranked the scope to 18x for shooting, but 3x was observing. This scope actually has parallax adjustments marked on the knob out to 200yds, so I used the 3L light to set those as well. After 200yds, it jumps to 500yds, so at 250yds, I had to "guess".
The Eley Match ammo is still amazing. Every round was at least on the paper. I thought this was going to be a low wind night, but it evolved in to a moderate wind night, relative to .22LR shooting.
I was under dressed. I only wore tee shirt and light jacket on top and I was "cold". I wore watch cap instead of balaklava and was cold up there as well. I wore wet suit pants and that was good, because the ground was wet and muddy. I should have wore wet suit to and balaklava.
I am going to have to finally apply the anti-fog juice, the 14s were barely usable in the last third of the evening.
The thermal could see the tree lines out to 500yds, as far as I can see from these FPs. So that was better than previous.
The LRF could lase out to 200yds with the 3x magnifier.
The scope streaked up, either on the front of the CO-LR or on the back of the day scope eye piece. I'll guess the later, since that part was facing more towards the wind. But I could see plenty clearly enough and on 3x I could see very well, despite the lack of light.
Pic of gear.
.22LR with L&S 3-18x H58 scope, CO-LR, Thermal on top for observation, atlas bipod, tee shirt underneath to keep mud off carpet. Three magazines, helmet with dual 14s, counterweight of 2x7rd m1911 mags, 3L RBGW light, 850W ir-illuminator, m1911 with CT ir-laser grips and 8+1 in serpa. 3L RBGW light in pocket. Kestrel around neck. LRF, 3x magnifier on belt pouches. One quart canteen.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
There is something we haven't seen for several days outside this morning ... sunshine!!! We have been living in totally "socked in" world for 3 full days, seems like a month ... but today we have some sun ...
==
Still a little sore in left tricep and right shoulder. I think from hoisting myself up on that rock ledge with my arms, rather than from the gear.
==
Still a little sore in left tricep and right shoulder. I think from hoisting myself up on that rock ledge with my arms, rather than from the gear.
Last edited:
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
2014-12-08
2000-2230
40F
2 mph SW
Goal: .22LR to 300yds.
Environment: Totally different world out there tonight. We had SUN today. Wow, only 72 hours of rain and total overcast since last Friday, but with no break it seemed like forever. So when the sun came out this morning, we were happy! Tonight, when I headed out in the buggy, the moon was rising. And with the duals on, I was blinded. Just like driving into the sun in a vehicle! So I cranked the 14s way down and held up my hand to shield the moon light from my 14s/eyes and was able to drive up the hill into the moon light.
There were stars up there too, but the moon was so bright it was tough to see them. Do I need to get some "moonglasses" ???
The wind was averaging 1-3 mph at about 270 off the bullet path.
Equipment: .22lr, L&S 3-18x H58, CO-LR, Thermal. Using Eley Edge for the first time. LRF, 3x magnifier, dual 14s, helmet, .45acp, canteen.
New dope card:
Activity:
G01 - 100yds - 2rds - 9+7 = avg 8
Might be a little high. This batch of Edge is 1074, whereas the batch of Match was 1068, but I made no changes. Decided to skip 150yds and go directly to 200yds.
G02 - 200yds - 2rds - 5+6 = 11 avg 5.5
Well, I guess we have some wind. So I got out the Kestrel and read avg of .8 for 2m, decided to hold 0.2 mils
G03 - 200yds - 2rds - 8+0 = avg 4
Good for windage, not sure what happened with the high round. Decided to go to 250yds.
G04 - 250yds - 2rds - 6+7 = avg 6.5
0.3 wasn't enough, wind was 1.7 now, so decided to hold 0.4
G05 - 250yds - 2rds - 6+7 = avg 6.5
Better on windage. Decided to go to 300yds.
G06 - 300yds - 4rds = 5+6+9+6 = avg 6.5
Could only see the top 20% of the target just barely enough to see the top of the black circle. The lay of the land almost obscured the target, but not completely. I knew the rounds would be flying in a different trajectory, so I knew they could get there, but I had to be able to aim. So I aimed below the visible horizon, where I knew the center of the target was and fired 4 rounds. I held 0.3 mils. Measured wind, got 0.7 avg over 2m it actually sat on the .7 the whole time(I run in avg mode usually).
Results: Well, either I didn't shoot as well tonight or the edge ammo is not as tight as the match, or both. But I think it is good enough for my purposes. It seems to be pretty tight on windage, but probably some variation in elevation due to variation of MV and that is actually ok. When I'm shooting the .22lr out to 300yds, I mostly want to be practicing for the wind. As long as I'm on the paper I'm happy. But last year with the Federal AM22 ammo, I was only on paper about 40% of the time at 325yds. So this is much better. Of course the wind was much stronger most of the time I was out at 325yds last year and I'm sure I won't have many days of under 5mph like I've had with my initial practice with the new Eley ammo.
I used the LRF with the 3x magnifier to range and was able to lase the target directly even at 300yds. Tonight's conditions were much better in that regard.
So tenatively, I'll call the card good and next time will finally be able to try to get the wind right first time every time.
I'll also move higher up the hill as I move farther away from the targets, to avoid shooting from depressions. This will create a down angle, but that is normal with my shooting.
Well, I've enjoyed trying this Eley ammo, it is a new world!
2000-2230
40F
2 mph SW
Goal: .22LR to 300yds.
Environment: Totally different world out there tonight. We had SUN today. Wow, only 72 hours of rain and total overcast since last Friday, but with no break it seemed like forever. So when the sun came out this morning, we were happy! Tonight, when I headed out in the buggy, the moon was rising. And with the duals on, I was blinded. Just like driving into the sun in a vehicle! So I cranked the 14s way down and held up my hand to shield the moon light from my 14s/eyes and was able to drive up the hill into the moon light.
There were stars up there too, but the moon was so bright it was tough to see them. Do I need to get some "moonglasses" ???
The wind was averaging 1-3 mph at about 270 off the bullet path.
Equipment: .22lr, L&S 3-18x H58, CO-LR, Thermal. Using Eley Edge for the first time. LRF, 3x magnifier, dual 14s, helmet, .45acp, canteen.
New dope card:
Activity:
G01 - 100yds - 2rds - 9+7 = avg 8
Might be a little high. This batch of Edge is 1074, whereas the batch of Match was 1068, but I made no changes. Decided to skip 150yds and go directly to 200yds.
G02 - 200yds - 2rds - 5+6 = 11 avg 5.5
Well, I guess we have some wind. So I got out the Kestrel and read avg of .8 for 2m, decided to hold 0.2 mils
G03 - 200yds - 2rds - 8+0 = avg 4
Good for windage, not sure what happened with the high round. Decided to go to 250yds.
G04 - 250yds - 2rds - 6+7 = avg 6.5
0.3 wasn't enough, wind was 1.7 now, so decided to hold 0.4
G05 - 250yds - 2rds - 6+7 = avg 6.5
Better on windage. Decided to go to 300yds.
G06 - 300yds - 4rds = 5+6+9+6 = avg 6.5
Could only see the top 20% of the target just barely enough to see the top of the black circle. The lay of the land almost obscured the target, but not completely. I knew the rounds would be flying in a different trajectory, so I knew they could get there, but I had to be able to aim. So I aimed below the visible horizon, where I knew the center of the target was and fired 4 rounds. I held 0.3 mils. Measured wind, got 0.7 avg over 2m it actually sat on the .7 the whole time(I run in avg mode usually).
Results: Well, either I didn't shoot as well tonight or the edge ammo is not as tight as the match, or both. But I think it is good enough for my purposes. It seems to be pretty tight on windage, but probably some variation in elevation due to variation of MV and that is actually ok. When I'm shooting the .22lr out to 300yds, I mostly want to be practicing for the wind. As long as I'm on the paper I'm happy. But last year with the Federal AM22 ammo, I was only on paper about 40% of the time at 325yds. So this is much better. Of course the wind was much stronger most of the time I was out at 325yds last year and I'm sure I won't have many days of under 5mph like I've had with my initial practice with the new Eley ammo.
I used the LRF with the 3x magnifier to range and was able to lase the target directly even at 300yds. Tonight's conditions were much better in that regard.
So tenatively, I'll call the card good and next time will finally be able to try to get the wind right first time every time.
I'll also move higher up the hill as I move farther away from the targets, to avoid shooting from depressions. This will create a down angle, but that is normal with my shooting.
Well, I've enjoyed trying this Eley ammo, it is a new world!
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
The case for sub-caliber simulators:
When I first started shooting scoped rifles in Feb 2013 (I had shot only iron sights previously), my first rifle (in a long time) was a Sig716 7.62x51 16 inch barrel. At $1 or more for good ammo, I quickly realized, that having a .22LR would be a good thing. This would reduce ammo cost and would allow simulation of longer distances on my land, where I can only shoot out to 600yds safely. Simulation of longer distances provides opportunity to practice: (a) ranging techniques to ensure proper elevation and (b) wind estimation techniques to ensure proper windage. The difficulties presented by the .22LR at 200yds to 300yds thus "simulate" shooting .308WIN, .300WM or .338LM (I have the two endpoints and am thinking about the one in the middle) out to much greater real distances at a fraction of the cost, BUT.
The cost of .22LR ammo has risen and my "taste" for more expensive .22LR ammp has driven the price up. I had been using Federal AM22 which was running average 11 cents per round (8-14) now I'm experimenting with Eley Match and Edge, which run mid 30s and mid 20s respectively. The Federal Lake City 55gr XM193 I use as target ammo out of 5.56 rifle runs mid 30s per round about the same price as the Eley Match. Does this cost "equality" invalidate the idea of using the .22LR as a sub-caliber simulator? Well, if I use the Eley match ammo, it would seem to, to some extent. But there were two original benefits, to using the .22LR ... one was the lower ammo cost, the other is the reduction of range required to simulate longer ranged shooting, so that aspect still exists.
If I use the 5.56 as a sub-caliber simulator, I would be paying mid 30s for the 55gr ammo and possibly shooting out to 500yds. Doing this would add more difficulty to the ranging process, due to greater distance, but would give up the benefit of no noise/recoil.
So regarding noise/recoil ... the .22LR shooting subsonic ammo has essentially no noise or recoil. The 5.56 does have noise and some recoil. So from a "flinch management" perspective, shooting the .22LR is a "decreasing" (unlearning flinch) activity, whereas shooting the 5.56 is more likely to be an "increasing" (learning flinch). So shooting the .22LR is closer to dry firing and that is another benefit. So the cost increase of .22LR ammo challanges one benefit, but does not remove two other benefits.
In last night's shooting of Eley Edge (my first time ever shooting that ammo), I noticed that the deviations in windage seemed to all be explainable by my actions or inactions. But some of the elevation deviation issues were more difficult to explain. So, it seems possible that variation in powder might be part of the reason. In reading forum posts, from various forums regarding comparison of Edge to Match, not surprisingly, most of these posts, all but one, declared, or showed evidence, that Match got tighter groups. Does anyone else shoot Edge regularly?
Thoughts on this topic are welcome ... I'm the Kindergardener here ...
==
L&S 3-18x H58 ffp (no Ill Ret) scope feedback.
Shooting the .22LR for several nights has given me a greater level of experience with my new scope I got a few months ago. The primary advantage this scope has is length, it is short ... 11.9 inches. That means I can run it on my Sig716 with 14.25 inches of useable rail space and put both the Apollo and the CO-LR in front of it.
So, it is short ... what about other pros and cons?
The reticle is H58. I was not sure about getting this reticle, but the deal I got was so good that I paid the same price I expected to pay for the TMR reticle and I had been wanting to try one of the "fancy" reticles. So far, I'm ok with this reticle. I'd still probably rather have a TMR, but I'm an idiot on many things and this might be one. Since this is an FFP scope, I can use the reticle in two ways. At low power, this is a "cross hair" reticle, because you can't see all the fancy stuff, it is too small. But at medium to high power you can use the fancy stuff. If I crank down to 3-6x ... I can't see the "hash" marks but I can see the cross hairs ... so if I ever tried to hunt with this scope, I'd be in this range with a cross hair reticle, which is fine. At 9x-12x I can certainly see the mils, there are 10 on each side for windage with a pair of 20 mil mark by themselves out there on the wings. For elevation there are 26 up. Above the main horizontal cross hair line, there is nothing but emptiness. I guess people complained about the "business" of the H reticles, so they left them a big open space to enjoy. The top half of the reticle is completely open, for better or worse.
For "training" (everything I do is "training") the H58 is good because it has 0.2 mil hash marks, but they are little, so I like to crank up to at least 9x if I want to use them. All the way up at 18x they are very visible. And between the .2 mil hash marks are the white spaces and you can hold on them as well for the "odd" numbered 10ths. So this reticle can be quite precise, but you (er I) need to be on the higher powers to enjoy this feature.
I think this will be a great reticle for ranging. I've just started using it for such, but I ranged the far side of my alfalfa patch from my back porch to be 500yds and the LRF "confirmed" at 512yds, for one of my early attempts and that isn't shabby.
I did not get the Ill Ret version as it was $1,000 more and only the center "X" was illuminated anyway. For my day telescopic devices, I've only needed Ill Ret twice out of a lot of shooting and never with i^2 devices. The EOTECH (non-telescopic) of course, is only Ill Ret.
The magnification "knob" is fine, easy to use. The parallax knob is fine, easy to use. The windage knob is ok, is has a cover, which I hate, but it has one. I can take the cover off and turn the knob with one hand and replace the cover. So it is not too bad. But I'd rather not have something to loose. The clicks on the windage knob are very positive and I can click this knob at night without looking and be sure I am getting what I think I am getting. So, that leaves the elevation knob which is the weakest part of this scope, IMHO. It is barely useable. With a red 3L admin light I can get where I need to be, with effort. But I have to sometimes switch hands to get the knob to move. You have to squeeze it from both sides to get it to move and the part you have to squeeze moves as you turn the knob. So if you are turning the knob a long way, you have to let go and grab on again. I could use more "choice" language, but I don't want to offend granny. Whoever thought this was a good idea cannot have tried to use it at night to crank a lot of elevation quickly and accurately. That being said, I like the elevation knobs on my older L&S scopes they are fine. I can crank all of them M1, M3, M5, quickly and accurately at night, without looking, with no "admin light". The "new" M5B2C7D3elevation knobs are a step backward, IMHO.
This scope can be compared to similar Bushy 3.5-21x scope and new Gen II Vortex 3-18x scopes and I've heard good things about both.
When I first started shooting scoped rifles in Feb 2013 (I had shot only iron sights previously), my first rifle (in a long time) was a Sig716 7.62x51 16 inch barrel. At $1 or more for good ammo, I quickly realized, that having a .22LR would be a good thing. This would reduce ammo cost and would allow simulation of longer distances on my land, where I can only shoot out to 600yds safely. Simulation of longer distances provides opportunity to practice: (a) ranging techniques to ensure proper elevation and (b) wind estimation techniques to ensure proper windage. The difficulties presented by the .22LR at 200yds to 300yds thus "simulate" shooting .308WIN, .300WM or .338LM (I have the two endpoints and am thinking about the one in the middle) out to much greater real distances at a fraction of the cost, BUT.
The cost of .22LR ammo has risen and my "taste" for more expensive .22LR ammp has driven the price up. I had been using Federal AM22 which was running average 11 cents per round (8-14) now I'm experimenting with Eley Match and Edge, which run mid 30s and mid 20s respectively. The Federal Lake City 55gr XM193 I use as target ammo out of 5.56 rifle runs mid 30s per round about the same price as the Eley Match. Does this cost "equality" invalidate the idea of using the .22LR as a sub-caliber simulator? Well, if I use the Eley match ammo, it would seem to, to some extent. But there were two original benefits, to using the .22LR ... one was the lower ammo cost, the other is the reduction of range required to simulate longer ranged shooting, so that aspect still exists.
If I use the 5.56 as a sub-caliber simulator, I would be paying mid 30s for the 55gr ammo and possibly shooting out to 500yds. Doing this would add more difficulty to the ranging process, due to greater distance, but would give up the benefit of no noise/recoil.
So regarding noise/recoil ... the .22LR shooting subsonic ammo has essentially no noise or recoil. The 5.56 does have noise and some recoil. So from a "flinch management" perspective, shooting the .22LR is a "decreasing" (unlearning flinch) activity, whereas shooting the 5.56 is more likely to be an "increasing" (learning flinch). So shooting the .22LR is closer to dry firing and that is another benefit. So the cost increase of .22LR ammo challanges one benefit, but does not remove two other benefits.
In last night's shooting of Eley Edge (my first time ever shooting that ammo), I noticed that the deviations in windage seemed to all be explainable by my actions or inactions. But some of the elevation deviation issues were more difficult to explain. So, it seems possible that variation in powder might be part of the reason. In reading forum posts, from various forums regarding comparison of Edge to Match, not surprisingly, most of these posts, all but one, declared, or showed evidence, that Match got tighter groups. Does anyone else shoot Edge regularly?
Thoughts on this topic are welcome ... I'm the Kindergardener here ...
==
L&S 3-18x H58 ffp (no Ill Ret) scope feedback.
Shooting the .22LR for several nights has given me a greater level of experience with my new scope I got a few months ago. The primary advantage this scope has is length, it is short ... 11.9 inches. That means I can run it on my Sig716 with 14.25 inches of useable rail space and put both the Apollo and the CO-LR in front of it.
So, it is short ... what about other pros and cons?
The reticle is H58. I was not sure about getting this reticle, but the deal I got was so good that I paid the same price I expected to pay for the TMR reticle and I had been wanting to try one of the "fancy" reticles. So far, I'm ok with this reticle. I'd still probably rather have a TMR, but I'm an idiot on many things and this might be one
. Since this is an FFP scope, I can use the reticle in two ways. At low power, this is a "cross hair" reticle, because you can't see all the fancy stuff, it is too small. But at medium to high power you can use the fancy stuff. If I crank down to 3-6x ... I can't see the "hash" marks but I can see the cross hairs ... so if I ever tried to hunt with this scope, I'd be in this range with a cross hair reticle, which is fine. At 9x-12x I can certainly see the mils, there are 10 on each side for windage with a pair of 20 mil mark by themselves out there on the wings. For elevation there are 26 up. Above the main horizontal cross hair line, there is nothing but emptiness. I guess people complained about the "business" of the H reticles, so they left them a big open space to enjoy. The top half of the reticle is completely open, for better or worse.For "training" (everything I do is "training") the H58 is good because it has 0.2 mil hash marks, but they are little, so I like to crank up to at least 9x if I want to use them. All the way up at 18x they are very visible. And between the .2 mil hash marks are the white spaces and you can hold on them as well for the "odd" numbered 10ths. So this reticle can be quite precise, but you (er I) need to be on the higher powers to enjoy this feature.
I think this will be a great reticle for ranging. I've just started using it for such, but I ranged the far side of my alfalfa patch from my back porch to be 500yds and the LRF "confirmed" at 512yds, for one of my early attempts and that isn't shabby.
I did not get the Ill Ret version as it was $1,000 more and only the center "X" was illuminated anyway. For my day telescopic devices, I've only needed Ill Ret twice out of a lot of shooting and never with i^2 devices. The EOTECH (non-telescopic) of course, is only Ill Ret.
The magnification "knob" is fine, easy to use. The parallax knob is fine, easy to use. The windage knob is ok, is has a cover, which I hate, but it has one. I can take the cover off and turn the knob with one hand and replace the cover. So it is not too bad. But I'd rather not have something to loose. The clicks on the windage knob are very positive and I can click this knob at night without looking and be sure I am getting what I think I am getting. So, that leaves the elevation knob which is the weakest part of this scope, IMHO. It is barely useable. With a red 3L admin light I can get where I need to be, with effort. But I have to sometimes switch hands to get the knob to move. You have to squeeze it from both sides to get it to move and the part you have to squeeze moves as you turn the knob. So if you are turning the knob a long way, you have to let go and grab on again. I could use more "choice" language, but I don't want to offend granny. Whoever thought this was a good idea cannot have tried to use it at night to crank a lot of elevation quickly and accurately. That being said, I like the elevation knobs on my older L&S scopes they are fine. I can crank all of them M1, M3, M5, quickly and accurately at night, without looking, with no "admin light". The "new" M5B2C7D3
elevation knobs are a step backward, IMHO.This scope can be compared to similar Bushy 3.5-21x scope and new Gen II Vortex 3-18x scopes and I've heard good things about both.
RattlesnakeDan
San Antonio Texas
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What? Can you repeat that.
TEXASLAWMAN
Lone Star Boars Owner
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Why would they do that to the elevation knob? To keep it from accidentally moving?
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
Aye, I'll look for the "repeat" button ... must be around here somewhere! ;)
That's a great question for the folks over at L&S, I can only speculate.
My first thought was same as yours, that they'd had complaints and wanted to mitigate slippage.
My second thought was that they'd had complaints about L&S scopes in general not having enough "cool features" ... so they hunted around for some "cool features" to add and came up with this.
==
As to actual slippage problems, I've had my M5 elevation turret slip twice and my M2 elevation turret slip once, but all those cases were me not tightening them down right. So as usual, I blame me, not the gear.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
2014-12-10
2000-2130
30F
2 MPH SW
Goal: Practice ranging estimation and wind estimation with .22LR at 200yds to 300yds.
Environment: Light rain, low thick clouds, no moon or stars.
Equipment: .22LR, COLR, thermal, atlas bipod, eley edge with dope card. LRF, 3x magnifier, kestrel. Pinnacle 14 on j-arm on team wendy bump helmet.
Here is dope card, no changes since last time:
Activity: Was able to lase target with 3x magnifier on 14 at 200yds got between 196yds and 208yds, walked back and forth and kept lasing till I got 199yds. Measured wind, got between 2.5 and 2.8 with 2.7 being the 2m average. Increased wind estimate to 3.3 to account for higher wind at higher points along the bullet path. Dope card said 10 mph would be 2.1 mils so held 0.7 mils right. Lots of scintillation in the CO-LR due to low light, so backed off the 18x down to about 12x.
G01 - 200yds - 5rds - 10+8+8+8+6 = avg 8
Then went to 250yds, here had to range off the tree back which is known to be 108yds from the target, though I am at an angle, so I should be about 152 from this tree (est.) when ranging. Ranging and stepping around until I got 155 then stepped up 3.
I could not feel any wind, but kestrel measured 0.8 which I increased to 1.0. Dope card said I should hold 2.6 so rounded up to 0.3 mils right.
G02 - 250yds - 5rds - 6+5+0+0+0 = avg 2.2
So the wind was higher somewhere along the bullet path than I could measure at the firing point. I could not feel or hear any wind. The wind will win sometimes.
Results: I tried the 14 on the bump helmet to change things up. Clothes were teeshirt, light jacket and wet suit top with snow pants. So I was too warm. And with the balaklava, the bump helmet was too tight, even with everything as loose as I could get it. I could fasten the chin snap but it was too tight, so I wore it unsnapped. The eley edge continues to seem to offer more variation in elevation than the match did, but that is ok for my purpose. But the "groups" seem to be distributed about the correct line of elevation, so looks like I am getting the distance pretty close and that is the part I should be able to control. The wind, at night, I can just do the best I can do and not make an actual mistake.
Thermal was able to see buggy, berm and tree lines, but not target backboard. Hear a coyote off to the East, but very little animal activity tonight.
2000-2130
30F
2 MPH SW
Goal: Practice ranging estimation and wind estimation with .22LR at 200yds to 300yds.
Environment: Light rain, low thick clouds, no moon or stars.
Equipment: .22LR, COLR, thermal, atlas bipod, eley edge with dope card. LRF, 3x magnifier, kestrel. Pinnacle 14 on j-arm on team wendy bump helmet.
Here is dope card, no changes since last time:
Activity: Was able to lase target with 3x magnifier on 14 at 200yds got between 196yds and 208yds, walked back and forth and kept lasing till I got 199yds. Measured wind, got between 2.5 and 2.8 with 2.7 being the 2m average. Increased wind estimate to 3.3 to account for higher wind at higher points along the bullet path. Dope card said 10 mph would be 2.1 mils so held 0.7 mils right. Lots of scintillation in the CO-LR due to low light, so backed off the 18x down to about 12x.
G01 - 200yds - 5rds - 10+8+8+8+6 = avg 8
Then went to 250yds, here had to range off the tree back which is known to be 108yds from the target, though I am at an angle, so I should be about 152 from this tree (est.) when ranging. Ranging and stepping around until I got 155 then stepped up 3.
I could not feel any wind, but kestrel measured 0.8 which I increased to 1.0. Dope card said I should hold 2.6 so rounded up to 0.3 mils right.
G02 - 250yds - 5rds - 6+5+0+0+0 = avg 2.2
So the wind was higher somewhere along the bullet path than I could measure at the firing point. I could not feel or hear any wind. The wind will win sometimes.
Results: I tried the 14 on the bump helmet to change things up. Clothes were teeshirt, light jacket and wet suit top with snow pants. So I was too warm. And with the balaklava, the bump helmet was too tight, even with everything as loose as I could get it. I could fasten the chin snap but it was too tight, so I wore it unsnapped. The eley edge continues to seem to offer more variation in elevation than the match did, but that is ok for my purpose. But the "groups" seem to be distributed about the correct line of elevation, so looks like I am getting the distance pretty close and that is the part I should be able to control. The wind, at night, I can just do the best I can do and not make an actual mistake.
Thermal was able to see buggy, berm and tree lines, but not target backboard. Hear a coyote off to the East, but very little animal activity tonight.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
2014-12-13
1400-1530
40F
10 mph SSW
Goal: .22LR practice at 200yds - 300yds, range estimation and wind estimation.
Environment: Misty, breeze from SSW.
Equipment: .22LR, atlas bipod L&S 3-18x H58, Eley Edge, LRF, Kestrel, dope card:
Activity:
Walked from known distance 100yds FP, counting 100 foot steps. Lased target directly and got 208yds. Walked forward 8 steps, got 202yds. Walked forward 2 steps, got 199yds. Back 1 step, got 199yds, back one step got 200yds. Tried again, got 200yds. Put bipod where feet were.
Cranked to 6.3 on the dial per dope card.
Held hands out from body and turned to face the wind which was SSW. Pulled out Kestrel. Wind two minute average was 8.3 from 180 degress off the bullet path. I did not hold for wind.
G01 - 5rds - 200yds - 10+8+8+8+6 = 40 Avg = 8
I was a little to the right. But this would be like a .2 left hold and I could not predict that fine a determination on the wind direction. As near as I could tell the gun (pointing at the target) and the wind, had the same direction.
After checking target, moved, counting 50 steps. Moved laterally farther up the hill. Lased 246yds. Moved 4 steps back, got 200yds. Tried again, got 200yds. Put gun down with bipod by feet.
Wind averaged 8.7 over 2m period. I did not use info from prior shot. I want this practice to be that each group stands alone and we make a wind decision based on data we have that doesn't include previous firing results.
I decided not to hold again. The wind seemed to be from directly to the rear of the bullet path.
G02 - 5yds - 250yds - 8+8+7+7+5 = 35 Avg = 7
I was a bit to the left. When the wind is behind you, this will happen.
After checking target, proceeded another 50 steps away from target and up the hill. Lased 294. Walked 6 more steps, lased 201, moved forward 1 step, lased 200, lased again and got 200.
Wind was between 7.5 and 10.3 but again, directly from the rear. I did not hold for wind.
G03 - 5yds - 300yds - 8+8+8+6+0 = 30 Avg 6
This looks a little high. Factors include shooting in the day and possible variation in CO-LR versus no-CO-LR ... me aiming wrong ... the clarity of the sight picture was significantly reduced at 300yds by the mist. This was not true at 200yds or 250yds. As usual, magnification was at 18x, to allow clear viewing of the black circle. Another possible factor is powder consistency. The Eley Edge, does seem to have more verticle variation magnitude in fall of shot than the Eley Match. Well, the result looks a little high. Maybe I lased it wrong. Maybe I aimed wrong. Maybe the scope is bad. Bottom line, I will make no changes based on this.
Results: I didn't shoot last night because my schedule in the previous week had been tough and I'd averaged 5 hours sleep per night. So took the night off last night. Then decided to go out today to make up and also to do a rare day shoot. I like to surprise myself, keeps me from getting too comfy.
1400-1530
40F
10 mph SSW
Goal: .22LR practice at 200yds - 300yds, range estimation and wind estimation.
Environment: Misty, breeze from SSW.
Equipment: .22LR, atlas bipod L&S 3-18x H58, Eley Edge, LRF, Kestrel, dope card:
Activity:
Walked from known distance 100yds FP, counting 100 foot steps. Lased target directly and got 208yds. Walked forward 8 steps, got 202yds. Walked forward 2 steps, got 199yds. Back 1 step, got 199yds, back one step got 200yds. Tried again, got 200yds. Put bipod where feet were.
Cranked to 6.3 on the dial per dope card.
Held hands out from body and turned to face the wind which was SSW. Pulled out Kestrel. Wind two minute average was 8.3 from 180 degress off the bullet path. I did not hold for wind.
G01 - 5rds - 200yds - 10+8+8+8+6 = 40 Avg = 8
I was a little to the right. But this would be like a .2 left hold and I could not predict that fine a determination on the wind direction. As near as I could tell the gun (pointing at the target) and the wind, had the same direction.
After checking target, moved, counting 50 steps. Moved laterally farther up the hill. Lased 246yds. Moved 4 steps back, got 200yds. Tried again, got 200yds. Put gun down with bipod by feet.
Wind averaged 8.7 over 2m period. I did not use info from prior shot. I want this practice to be that each group stands alone and we make a wind decision based on data we have that doesn't include previous firing results.
I decided not to hold again. The wind seemed to be from directly to the rear of the bullet path.
G02 - 5yds - 250yds - 8+8+7+7+5 = 35 Avg = 7
I was a bit to the left. When the wind is behind you, this will happen.
After checking target, proceeded another 50 steps away from target and up the hill. Lased 294. Walked 6 more steps, lased 201, moved forward 1 step, lased 200, lased again and got 200.
Wind was between 7.5 and 10.3 but again, directly from the rear. I did not hold for wind.
G03 - 5yds - 300yds - 8+8+8+6+0 = 30 Avg 6
This looks a little high. Factors include shooting in the day and possible variation in CO-LR versus no-CO-LR ... me aiming wrong ... the clarity of the sight picture was significantly reduced at 300yds by the mist. This was not true at 200yds or 250yds. As usual, magnification was at 18x, to allow clear viewing of the black circle. Another possible factor is powder consistency. The Eley Edge, does seem to have more verticle variation magnitude in fall of shot than the Eley Match. Well, the result looks a little high. Maybe I lased it wrong. Maybe I aimed wrong. Maybe the scope is bad. Bottom line, I will make no changes based on this.
Results: I didn't shoot last night because my schedule in the previous week had been tough and I'd averaged 5 hours sleep per night. So took the night off last night. Then decided to go out today to make up and also to do a rare day shoot. I like to surprise myself, keeps me from getting too comfy.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
2014-12-14
0830-1000
50F
10 mph S
Goal: .22LR practice at 200yds - 300yds, range estimation and wind estimation.
Environment: Misty, breeze from SSW. The mist was not as thick today. Yesterday, maximum distance I could see from top of Signal Hill was 1 mile. Today I could see ridges 3 miles away. Wind was a bit higher today and comming from more to the South.
Equipment: .22LR, atlas bipod L&S 3-18x H58, Eley Edge, LRF, Kestrel, dope card:
Activity:
Walked out, counting steps, to about 250yds. Lased target got 246yds. Walked farther got 251yds, moved a little closer, got 250yds twice.
Cranked to 9.4 on the dial per dope card for 250yds.
Held hands out from body and turned to face the wind which was S (actually it was Sou'by SSW if we are allowed to use 32 points as we did when I used to sail off Jacksonville). Pulled out Kestrel. Highest wind measured was 16.1 lowest was 5.5. Wind two minute average was 9.9 from 210 degrees off the bullet path. Dope card said to hold 2.6 for 10mph. I thirded for angle and rounded up for higher winds at higher altitude at half way point of bullet path. That gave me 0.9 mils. As I was loading and aiming, I realized the wind had died down a little, so I guesstimated a hold adjustment of 0.2 mils and wound up holding 0.7 left.
G01 - 5rds - 250yds - 10+9+7+6+5 = 37 Avg 7.4
Since I can't analyze individual shots, I don't know the sequence of these hits. Lateral variation could be fundamentals errors on my part or changing wind. Both factors are likely. But in the big scheme of things, the wind estimate was close enough for my tolerances. As was the distance estimate.
After checking target, moved counting steps. I realize since I am not moving directly away from the target, but am angling up the hill, I need to go a bit farther. So I counted 55 steps this time and first lase was 298yrds. Got 299 after 2 steps, got 300 after 1 more step. I am able to lase the target directly.
The wind might have shifted a little more directly S this time, and that is how I called it. But, as I was measuring the wind, the intensity died off. I decided not to wait for it to increase. Dope card said to hold 3.0 at 10mph, I halved for intensity to 1.5, then thirded for angle and got 0.5. So I held that amount. This is a white spot between the 0.4 and 0.6 hash marks.
cranked to 12.7 on the dial, per dope card for 300yds.
G02 - 5rds - 300yds = 8+8+7+7+0 = 30 avg 6
One shot very low. The low shot is however aligned from a windage perspective. So in the "wind dimension" the low shot is in the "group" ... it is however not in the group from an elevation perspective. Could me fundamentals on my part or variation in powder. Probably both.
But again, this result is within my tolerances for what I am trying to do.
Results: I feel lucky as "s%&^" today. Over the past two weeks when I started shooting this setup: The .22lr with 3-18x scope day and night, with and without the CO-LR, prone, to resume practice on distance and wind estimating, the wind god has been nice to me. First several sessions, wind was under 3 MPH, then a session with 10 mph directly behind me, then today a session with the wind 30 degrees off the bullet path. So the wind god is turning up the difficulty knob one noch at a time. S/He is a good training helper!
My thinking is that wind estimation is one of two of the toughest challenges in shooting (with lead being the other), especially if your goal is to hit the target with the first shot or even allowing for one followup shot. Distance estimating might be the third hardest part, but LRF tools, when available and when they work, make this easier. I need to start practicing with the reticle method as backup. There will be times when the LRF will not get the job done, like when it breaks or we run out of batteries or at night when the distance is too far to be able to see the laser dot on the target. In all those cases, we will need to use other means if we don't already know the distance.
I am shooting .22LR and the ground is wet, the berm is wet, there is no visible "splash" of dirt from either a hit or a miss. The black circle on these targets is 8 inches across the white scoring part of these targets is 12 inches across.
I would say that no change is indicated to the dope card by this session either.
I know I will miss badly sometimes, like when the wind is 60 degrees off the bullet path and somewhere above 15 mph, especially when above 20 mph. But I will continue the practice and take the lumps when they come. The wind estimating is part science and part art and I need a lot more practice on the art part.
0830-1000
50F
10 mph S
Goal: .22LR practice at 200yds - 300yds, range estimation and wind estimation.
Environment: Misty, breeze from SSW. The mist was not as thick today. Yesterday, maximum distance I could see from top of Signal Hill was 1 mile. Today I could see ridges 3 miles away. Wind was a bit higher today and comming from more to the South.
Equipment: .22LR, atlas bipod L&S 3-18x H58, Eley Edge, LRF, Kestrel, dope card:
Activity:
Walked out, counting steps, to about 250yds. Lased target got 246yds. Walked farther got 251yds, moved a little closer, got 250yds twice.
Cranked to 9.4 on the dial per dope card for 250yds.
Held hands out from body and turned to face the wind which was S (actually it was Sou'by SSW if we are allowed to use 32 points as we did when I used to sail off Jacksonville). Pulled out Kestrel. Highest wind measured was 16.1 lowest was 5.5. Wind two minute average was 9.9 from 210 degrees off the bullet path. Dope card said to hold 2.6 for 10mph. I thirded for angle and rounded up for higher winds at higher altitude at half way point of bullet path. That gave me 0.9 mils. As I was loading and aiming, I realized the wind had died down a little, so I guesstimated a hold adjustment of 0.2 mils and wound up holding 0.7 left.
G01 - 5rds - 250yds - 10+9+7+6+5 = 37 Avg 7.4
Since I can't analyze individual shots, I don't know the sequence of these hits. Lateral variation could be fundamentals errors on my part or changing wind. Both factors are likely. But in the big scheme of things, the wind estimate was close enough for my tolerances. As was the distance estimate.
After checking target, moved counting steps. I realize since I am not moving directly away from the target, but am angling up the hill, I need to go a bit farther. So I counted 55 steps this time and first lase was 298yrds. Got 299 after 2 steps, got 300 after 1 more step. I am able to lase the target directly.
The wind might have shifted a little more directly S this time, and that is how I called it. But, as I was measuring the wind, the intensity died off. I decided not to wait for it to increase. Dope card said to hold 3.0 at 10mph, I halved for intensity to 1.5, then thirded for angle and got 0.5. So I held that amount. This is a white spot between the 0.4 and 0.6 hash marks.
cranked to 12.7 on the dial, per dope card for 300yds.
G02 - 5rds - 300yds = 8+8+7+7+0 = 30 avg 6
One shot very low. The low shot is however aligned from a windage perspective. So in the "wind dimension" the low shot is in the "group" ... it is however not in the group from an elevation perspective. Could me fundamentals on my part or variation in powder. Probably both.
But again, this result is within my tolerances for what I am trying to do.
Results: I feel lucky as "s%&^" today. Over the past two weeks when I started shooting this setup: The .22lr with 3-18x scope day and night, with and without the CO-LR, prone, to resume practice on distance and wind estimating, the wind god has been nice to me. First several sessions, wind was under 3 MPH, then a session with 10 mph directly behind me, then today a session with the wind 30 degrees off the bullet path. So the wind god is turning up the difficulty knob one noch at a time. S/He is a good training helper!
My thinking is that wind estimation is one of two of the toughest challenges in shooting (with lead being the other), especially if your goal is to hit the target with the first shot or even allowing for one followup shot. Distance estimating might be the third hardest part, but LRF tools, when available and when they work, make this easier. I need to start practicing with the reticle method as backup. There will be times when the LRF will not get the job done, like when it breaks or we run out of batteries or at night when the distance is too far to be able to see the laser dot on the target. In all those cases, we will need to use other means if we don't already know the distance.
I am shooting .22LR and the ground is wet, the berm is wet, there is no visible "splash" of dirt from either a hit or a miss. The black circle on these targets is 8 inches across the white scoring part of these targets is 12 inches across.
I would say that no change is indicated to the dope card by this session either.
I know I will miss badly sometimes, like when the wind is 60 degrees off the bullet path and somewhere above 15 mph, especially when above 20 mph. But I will continue the practice and take the lumps when they come. The wind estimating is part science and part art and I need a lot more practice on the art part.
Last edited:
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
2014-12-14
2000-2130
50F
10 mph SW
Goal: .22LR practice at 200yds - 300yds, range estimation and wind estimation.
Environment: Solid rain, breeze from SW. Visibility was very poor.
Equipment: .22LR, atlas bipod L&S 3-18x H58, Eley Edge, LRF, Kestrel, CO-LR, Thermal, pinnalce on ballistic helmet, dope card:
Activity:
Difficulty driving buggy out, could barely see the twin ruts in the buggy trail.
Setup target and walked out, counting steps, to about 200yds. Could not see target with 14, so added 3x magnifier and could barely see target. Lased target got 208. Walked in, got 202, walked in got 200.
Cranked to 6.3 on the dial per dope card for 200yds.
Held hands out from body and turned to face the wind which was WbySW. Pulled out Kestrel avg was 7.5 for 2m. I decided not to hold, it was a close call. I just didn't think the angle was enough to warrant holding.
G01 - 5rds - 200yds - 7+7+6+5+0 = 25 Avg 5
A 0.5 mil hold to the right would've looked at lot better. So a weakness I didn't expect is difficulty aligning the felt wind direction with the rifle direction. I used to have a digital compass on my phone but I removed it. I might need it back.
Results: The horizontal group size was about 2.5 inches, so not so bad. But the "group" was centered about 4.5 inches left. So a "miss" from a wind calling perspective, but not a bad miss, just a regular miss.
The pasture was wet. I was sloshing when walking. This is wetter than we've been for a while. Very little light. I could not see the targets with the 14 unless I was 50yds away. With the 3x magnifier I could barely see the target board. With the CO-LR I could see the targets but the eyepiece glass was heavily streaked with water and it was hard to tell the black circles on the targets from the black water dots on the eye piece. I dried fired several times to make sure I could tell the difference while aiming.
I was wearing wet suit top and bottom and that worked well in the warm weather. Nothing underneath the wet suit was wet when I returned to base. The rifle and ammo worked fine in the rain. The CO-LR worked fine. I actually didn't try the Apollo, but I've used it in the rain a number of times.
It looks like I need to refine my ability to get the angle of the wind relative to the angle of the bullet path, matched up. When the wind is almost behind you (or in front of you) this is important. A small change in wind direction can mean needing to hold in the other direction!
2000-2130
50F
10 mph SW
Goal: .22LR practice at 200yds - 300yds, range estimation and wind estimation.
Environment: Solid rain, breeze from SW. Visibility was very poor.
Equipment: .22LR, atlas bipod L&S 3-18x H58, Eley Edge, LRF, Kestrel, CO-LR, Thermal, pinnalce on ballistic helmet, dope card:
Activity:
Difficulty driving buggy out, could barely see the twin ruts in the buggy trail.
Setup target and walked out, counting steps, to about 200yds. Could not see target with 14, so added 3x magnifier and could barely see target. Lased target got 208. Walked in, got 202, walked in got 200.
Cranked to 6.3 on the dial per dope card for 200yds.
Held hands out from body and turned to face the wind which was WbySW. Pulled out Kestrel avg was 7.5 for 2m. I decided not to hold, it was a close call. I just didn't think the angle was enough to warrant holding.
G01 - 5rds - 200yds - 7+7+6+5+0 = 25 Avg 5
A 0.5 mil hold to the right would've looked at lot better. So a weakness I didn't expect is difficulty aligning the felt wind direction with the rifle direction. I used to have a digital compass on my phone but I removed it. I might need it back.
Results: The horizontal group size was about 2.5 inches, so not so bad. But the "group" was centered about 4.5 inches left. So a "miss" from a wind calling perspective, but not a bad miss, just a regular miss
.The pasture was wet. I was sloshing when walking. This is wetter than we've been for a while. Very little light. I could not see the targets with the 14 unless I was 50yds away. With the 3x magnifier I could barely see the target board. With the CO-LR I could see the targets but the eyepiece glass was heavily streaked with water and it was hard to tell the black circles on the targets from the black water dots on the eye piece. I dried fired several times to make sure I could tell the difference while aiming.
I was wearing wet suit top and bottom and that worked well in the warm weather. Nothing underneath the wet suit was wet when I returned to base. The rifle and ammo worked fine in the rain. The CO-LR worked fine. I actually didn't try the Apollo, but I've used it in the rain a number of times.
It looks like I need to refine my ability to get the angle of the wind relative to the angle of the bullet path, matched up. When the wind is almost behind you (or in front of you) this is important. A small change in wind direction can mean needing to hold in the other direction!
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
2014-12-17
2000-2130
20F
2 MPH ESE
Goal(s): .22LR 300yds
Environment: Medium altitude clouds but solid cover no stars or moon. Some ambient light from nearby towns bouncing off the clouds, but it was dark and got darker. On the return, the SW sky was loud couds and mean looking at it was hard to stay on the buggy trail it was so dark.
Equipment: .22LR, L&S 3-18x H58, CO-LR with thermal for observation, atlas bipod. Pinnacle on ballistic helmet, LRF and 3x 14 magnifier on belt. Kestrel around neck. Canteen, Eley Edge, .45acp. Dope Card, unchanged:
Activity: Went straight to 300yds. Tried to lase target, but wasn't sure I could see the berm with the pinnacle, so added the 3x mangifier. Still could not see targets, but could see berm and based on known shape of berm could lase where targets are. First lase was 280yds, moved, then got 302yds, then 299, then 300 twice. Put bipod at feet.
Measured wind, low was 0.5 mph, high was 1.3 mph. I called it 1 mph, dope card said hold right 0.3 mils. Angle was 120 degrees off the bullet path, so adjusted to 0.2.
Got behind gun, could only see top half of target and only barely see the black circles. But I could make them out. Loaded and aimed and sent five rounds down range.
As I stood up I felt the wind had increased. But I couldn't feel it on the ground.
G01 - 300yds - 5rds - 8+8+7+5+0 = 28 Avg 5.6
Results: The dope card seems to work. A tenth of a mil is 1.8 inches at 300yds. And 1 MPH shift in wind is .3 mils or 5.4 inches at 300yds. This Eley ammo is a game changer compared to last year with the AM22 ammo. The wind god has been to generous during the last 2 weeks, I won't expect this soft treatment in January. The other limiting factor is ability to determine distance. Tonight was about the edge of visibility conditions I can lase these targets. I could lase an intermediate point and base distance off that, but it is more inaccurate due to unknown angle difference between target and intermediate point, I'd say -/+ 3yds, which is about 0.2 mils or 3.6 inches. But I'd probably be on the paper. So pre-measuring distances between intermediate and more distance points is a good idea.
New instructions have come in from team hq, it is time to get back to standing up shooting, but we will return to laying down shooting in mid-January. This Eley ammo is a game changer compared to last year with the AM22 ammo.
Gear:
2000-2130
20F
2 MPH ESE
Goal(s): .22LR 300yds
Environment: Medium altitude clouds but solid cover no stars or moon. Some ambient light from nearby towns bouncing off the clouds, but it was dark and got darker. On the return, the SW sky was loud couds and mean looking at it was hard to stay on the buggy trail it was so dark.
Equipment: .22LR, L&S 3-18x H58, CO-LR with thermal for observation, atlas bipod. Pinnacle on ballistic helmet, LRF and 3x 14 magnifier on belt. Kestrel around neck. Canteen, Eley Edge, .45acp. Dope Card, unchanged:
Activity: Went straight to 300yds. Tried to lase target, but wasn't sure I could see the berm with the pinnacle, so added the 3x mangifier. Still could not see targets, but could see berm and based on known shape of berm could lase where targets are. First lase was 280yds, moved, then got 302yds, then 299, then 300 twice. Put bipod at feet.
Measured wind, low was 0.5 mph, high was 1.3 mph. I called it 1 mph, dope card said hold right 0.3 mils. Angle was 120 degrees off the bullet path, so adjusted to 0.2.
Got behind gun, could only see top half of target and only barely see the black circles. But I could make them out. Loaded and aimed and sent five rounds down range.
As I stood up I felt the wind had increased. But I couldn't feel it on the ground.
G01 - 300yds - 5rds - 8+8+7+5+0 = 28 Avg 5.6
Results: The dope card seems to work. A tenth of a mil is 1.8 inches at 300yds. And 1 MPH shift in wind is .3 mils or 5.4 inches at 300yds. This Eley ammo is a game changer compared to last year with the AM22 ammo. The wind god has been to generous during the last 2 weeks, I won't expect this soft treatment in January. The other limiting factor is ability to determine distance. Tonight was about the edge of visibility conditions I can lase these targets. I could lase an intermediate point and base distance off that, but it is more inaccurate due to unknown angle difference between target and intermediate point, I'd say -/+ 3yds, which is about 0.2 mils or 3.6 inches. But I'd probably be on the paper. So pre-measuring distances between intermediate and more distance points is a good idea.
New instructions have come in from team hq, it is time to get back to standing up shooting, but we will return to laying down shooting in mid-January. This Eley ammo is a game changer compared to last year with the AM22 ammo.
Gear:
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
2014-12-19
2130-2300
30F
2 MPH S
Goal: 5.56 standing unsupported, 25yds-100yds with thermal and laser.
Environment: 6-8 inches of snow on the ground. No breeze, no moon, no stars, low thick clouds.
Equipment: 5.56, sling, eotech, ir-laser, thermal, FLC 55gr. LRF, 3x mag, canteen, 14 base on 5.56, Helmet with pinnacle.
Activity: I have to go up two hills in the buggy on the way out, short but steep. I forgot to put the buggy in 4 wheel drive mode. I barely made it up the second hill. Once stopped on top of hill I put buggy in 4wd and no more problems.
Setup target, could not see black circles with 14 at over 55yds and just barely from there. I was think of mounting the 14 on the 5.56 to check the zero of the eotech and to make co-witnessing of the laser easier than doing it with the 14 on the helmet.
So I started at 50yds and put the 14 on the rifle.
G01 - 50yds - 2rds - 7+7 = 14 avg 7 (14 on rifle + eotech)
With the 720nm filter on the front I can't see the NV reticle, so I used the day reticle with -5 clicks on intensity. We were low and left.
Then I decided to try the thermal at 25yds, so I put the 14 back on the helmet, it went right on. Sometimes this takes more than one try. I got lucky this time.
I had starteed the night with the thermal on the rifle, but I had to remove to use the 14/eotech combination, so the thermal was lying in the snow while I firsted the first two rounds and I had to put it on the rifle. I was operating in my usual "left hand with glove, right hand without" and that worked great for putting the thermal on. The no glove hand was on the barrel touching the rail clip and guiding the front of the clipon monunt onto the rifle while the gloved hand was holding the thermal. It's not one handed but it is fast and consistent for me.
G02 - 25 yds - 2rds - 8+6 = 14 avg 7 (thermal + eotech)
I couldn't see the target with the thermal, in fact I couldn't see the target board. But I could the base of the berm (some exposed dirt) and the top of the berm (some exposed dirt) and with the 14s I could also see these areas and could see the targets in between, so I aimed with the thermal using the exposed dirt areas as guides with the "map" being what I could see with the 14s. I used the eotech reticle to aim. Was low and left. Aiming point bull.
Then decided to try laser.
G03 - 25 yds - 2rds = 9+9 = 18 avg 9 (ir-laser)
This was aiming 12 o'clock at the top of the black circle.
G04 - 25yds - 2rds = 7+7 = 14 avg 7 (ir-laser)
This was aiming at the bull.
G05 - 50yds - 2 rds = 9+8 = 17 avg 8.5 (ir-laser)
This was aiming 2 o'clock on the edge of the black circle.
G06 - 50yds - 2 rds = 8+9 = 17 avg 8.5 (ir-laser)
Same, 2 o'clock on the edge of the black circle.
Results: I couldn't shoot farther, because I couldn't see the targets well enough. I tried to use the ir-illuminator on the helmet and it help on the first ir-laser group (G03) but then it crapped out. I guess the battery finally died. I've been using it was a long time. I didn't have a spare 123. I could've taken one of the batteries from the thermal, but then the thermal would be down. I'm looking for better than 6.5 out to 100yds. That is the goal.
I wore snow pants (plenty warm), tee shirt, light jacket, wet suit top, plenty warm. And Balaklava under helmet, plenty warm. I used "Fogtech" for the first time. I put it on the back of the 14, the back of the thermal and both sides of the eotech. Got no fogging except on the 14 was on the rifle. Not sure what happened but after the first two rounds, couldn't see through the 14 on the rifle, so gave up on that idea for tonight. Put 14 back on helmet.
Could turn ir-laser off every time except the last time, then it wouldn't turn off. This is a recurring problem.
Need to bring hand warmers next time to better aim the thermal.
I might also try a second target board with 8 of the 50yd targets and shoot one round at each with the ir-laser. That will simulate a more dynamic environment especially if I try to do it fast. I could try to time it with my phone.
2130-2300
30F
2 MPH S
Goal: 5.56 standing unsupported, 25yds-100yds with thermal and laser.
Environment: 6-8 inches of snow on the ground. No breeze, no moon, no stars, low thick clouds.
Equipment: 5.56, sling, eotech, ir-laser, thermal, FLC 55gr. LRF, 3x mag, canteen, 14 base on 5.56, Helmet with pinnacle.
Activity: I have to go up two hills in the buggy on the way out, short but steep. I forgot to put the buggy in 4 wheel drive mode. I barely made it up the second hill. Once stopped on top of hill I put buggy in 4wd and no more problems.
Setup target, could not see black circles with 14 at over 55yds and just barely from there. I was think of mounting the 14 on the 5.56 to check the zero of the eotech and to make co-witnessing of the laser easier than doing it with the 14 on the helmet.
So I started at 50yds and put the 14 on the rifle.
G01 - 50yds - 2rds - 7+7 = 14 avg 7 (14 on rifle + eotech)
With the 720nm filter on the front I can't see the NV reticle, so I used the day reticle with -5 clicks on intensity. We were low and left.
Then I decided to try the thermal at 25yds, so I put the 14 back on the helmet, it went right on. Sometimes this takes more than one try. I got lucky this time.
I had starteed the night with the thermal on the rifle, but I had to remove to use the 14/eotech combination, so the thermal was lying in the snow while I firsted the first two rounds and I had to put it on the rifle. I was operating in my usual "left hand with glove, right hand without" and that worked great for putting the thermal on. The no glove hand was on the barrel touching the rail clip and guiding the front of the clipon monunt onto the rifle while the gloved hand was holding the thermal. It's not one handed but it is fast and consistent for me.
G02 - 25 yds - 2rds - 8+6 = 14 avg 7 (thermal + eotech)
I couldn't see the target with the thermal, in fact I couldn't see the target board. But I could the base of the berm (some exposed dirt) and the top of the berm (some exposed dirt) and with the 14s I could also see these areas and could see the targets in between, so I aimed with the thermal using the exposed dirt areas as guides with the "map" being what I could see with the 14s. I used the eotech reticle to aim. Was low and left. Aiming point bull.
Then decided to try laser.
G03 - 25 yds - 2rds = 9+9 = 18 avg 9 (ir-laser)
This was aiming 12 o'clock at the top of the black circle.
G04 - 25yds - 2rds = 7+7 = 14 avg 7 (ir-laser)
This was aiming at the bull.
G05 - 50yds - 2 rds = 9+8 = 17 avg 8.5 (ir-laser)
This was aiming 2 o'clock on the edge of the black circle.
G06 - 50yds - 2 rds = 8+9 = 17 avg 8.5 (ir-laser)
Same, 2 o'clock on the edge of the black circle.
Results: I couldn't shoot farther, because I couldn't see the targets well enough. I tried to use the ir-illuminator on the helmet and it help on the first ir-laser group (G03) but then it crapped out. I guess the battery finally died. I've been using it was a long time. I didn't have a spare 123. I could've taken one of the batteries from the thermal, but then the thermal would be down. I'm looking for better than 6.5 out to 100yds. That is the goal.
I wore snow pants (plenty warm), tee shirt, light jacket, wet suit top, plenty warm. And Balaklava under helmet, plenty warm. I used "Fogtech" for the first time. I put it on the back of the 14, the back of the thermal and both sides of the eotech. Got no fogging except on the 14 was on the rifle. Not sure what happened but after the first two rounds, couldn't see through the 14 on the rifle, so gave up on that idea for tonight. Put 14 back on helmet.
Could turn ir-laser off every time except the last time, then it wouldn't turn off. This is a recurring problem.
Need to bring hand warmers next time to better aim the thermal.
I might also try a second target board with 8 of the 50yd targets and shoot one round at each with the ir-laser. That will simulate a more dynamic environment especially if I try to do it fast. I could try to time it with my phone.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
2014-12-24
2100-2230
30F
8 mph S
Goal(s): 5.56 and 7.62 standing up supported, laser and thermal.
Environment: Stars, first sliver of moon, but had sunk by time I got out. Some clouds. Cass and Orion both visible. The Owls were complaining about the noise, from overhead.
Equipment: 5.56 with ir-laser and thermal. 7.62 with L&S 3.5-10x TMR and ir-laser. XM193 for the 5.56 and XM80 for the 7.62 ... target ammo. LRF, 3x mag, pinnacle on helmet.
Activity: Ran out of staples, was going to setup two pairs of hand warmers for improved visibility and try to get to 100yds, but ran out of staples. In the event shot 8 rds with ir-laser 5.56 at 50 and 75yds and 2 yds of thermal on the 5.56 at 50yds.
G01 - 50yds - 2rds - 8+5 = 13 avg 6.5 (ir-laser) aiming center
G02 - 75yds - 2rds - 10+8 = 18 avg 9 (ir-laser) aiming high right
G03 - 50yds - 2rds - 9+9 = 18 avg 9 (ir-laser) aiming high right
G04 - 75rds - 2rds - 6+7 = 13 avg 6.5 (ir-laser) aiming high right
G05 - 50yds - 2rds - 8+5 = 13 avg 6.5 (thermal) aiming high right
Results: Need to bring spare stables out, I thought I had them, but I was too "tiddy" and had removed them from the buggy. Had to shoot the thermal just aiming at the target board outline trying to guess where the black circle was. With the laser, aiming high right seems to work in general, but I can't also get the round to go down range exactly when I think the rifle is pointed at the right spot because I'm moving the rifle (on purpose). So getting the olde hand and eye coordination tuned up is what I'm trying to do. I switched to the thermal reticle. I'm become worried that putting a clip on in front of an eotech might not be the perfect solution.
I need to check the co-witness of the ir-laser and the eotech. That's why I put the 14 base on the 5.56 again recently. So will next that next time.
Overall average for tonight was 7.5 versus goal of better than 6.5 at 100yds. So we need to tighten up further, though we are in the ball park. Another way of looking it is "hit a 9 inch steel circle 85% of the time at 100yds".
2100-2230
30F
8 mph S
Goal(s): 5.56 and 7.62 standing up supported, laser and thermal.
Environment: Stars, first sliver of moon, but had sunk by time I got out. Some clouds. Cass and Orion both visible. The Owls were complaining about the noise, from overhead.
Equipment: 5.56 with ir-laser and thermal. 7.62 with L&S 3.5-10x TMR and ir-laser. XM193 for the 5.56 and XM80 for the 7.62 ... target ammo. LRF, 3x mag, pinnacle on helmet.
Activity: Ran out of staples, was going to setup two pairs of hand warmers for improved visibility and try to get to 100yds, but ran out of staples. In the event shot 8 rds with ir-laser 5.56 at 50 and 75yds and 2 yds of thermal on the 5.56 at 50yds.
G01 - 50yds - 2rds - 8+5 = 13 avg 6.5 (ir-laser) aiming center
G02 - 75yds - 2rds - 10+8 = 18 avg 9 (ir-laser) aiming high right
G03 - 50yds - 2rds - 9+9 = 18 avg 9 (ir-laser) aiming high right
G04 - 75rds - 2rds - 6+7 = 13 avg 6.5 (ir-laser) aiming high right
G05 - 50yds - 2rds - 8+5 = 13 avg 6.5 (thermal) aiming high right
Results: Need to bring spare stables out, I thought I had them, but I was too "tiddy" and had removed them from the buggy. Had to shoot the thermal just aiming at the target board outline trying to guess where the black circle was. With the laser, aiming high right seems to work in general, but I can't also get the round to go down range exactly when I think the rifle is pointed at the right spot because I'm moving the rifle (on purpose). So getting the olde hand and eye coordination tuned up is what I'm trying to do. I switched to the thermal reticle. I'm become worried that putting a clip on in front of an eotech might not be the perfect solution.
I need to check the co-witness of the ir-laser and the eotech. That's why I put the 14 base on the 5.56 again recently. So will next that next time.
Overall average for tonight was 7.5 versus goal of better than 6.5 at 100yds. So we need to tighten up further, though we are in the ball park. Another way of looking it is "hit a 9 inch steel circle 85% of the time at 100yds".
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
2014-12-25
1100-1230
40F
15 mph S
Goal: .338LM practice with wind, 475yds.
Environment: Not a "white" Christmas, but at least a "bright" one. Sunny with strong breeze from South. Still a bit muddy from the "great thaw" a few days ago, but the wind will work to dry us out.
Equipment: .338LM, L&S 8.5-25x TMR, LRF, Kestrel, Lapua 250. Here is "dope" card, though it is not validated, except at 475yds (maybe).
Activity: Setup target and the FP. Distance showed at 474yds with the LRF. Read wind for 2m. High was 16.8, low was 8.5, average was 11.1. Direction was 210 degrees off the bullet path. Dope card says 0.8 mils for 10 mph. So rounding this up to 0.9 for the 11.1 reading and then dividing by 3, as, at this distance, I run the scope on minimum power at 8.5 (this is an sfp) I got 0.3 mils. As I was laying down on the gun, the wind dropped, so I held 0.2 left.
G01 - 475yds - 3rds - Group size 5 3/8 inches
For second group I did not want to use data from first group, so started over. Read wind for 2m. High was 18.4, average was 13.9, Direction still 210 degress of the bullet path. Calling this 15 mph, dope card says to hold 1.2 mils, dividing by 3, we get 0.4. But again, as I was lying down on the gun, the wind died a bit, so I held 0.3 left.
G02 - 475yds - 3rds, Group size 4.75 inches
Results: The five orange dots are from previous attempt to do this same thing (see earlier report). I would call the first group a "miss" as it is just over 1 MOA, I think for this rifle, at this distance over 1 MOA is a miss. In this case, not a bad miss, but still a miss. One factor could be I'm shooting from the side of the hill and I wasn't lined up behind the rifle sufficiently during the first group. I was getting "pull to the left" (down the hill). The second group I adjusted for this and slide my ass farther of the hill, then I could see the barrel rise on the shot, but not move left or right.
As for the wind calling, I'd call that acceptable.
The most concering aspect is that the groups seem to be high. I tried to aim at the same spot every time, which was the center of the three orange dots (which I could see). That put the cross hairs about where I marked the "cross" on the target pic (green cross hair). I didn't take the AB with me, because (a) this is a known distance shoot and (b) I had the dope card attached to the gun. But, back in the house before I left, the AB said to hold down two MOA and I can't figure out why that is. The only thing I changed was the temperature I took the zero temp down from 70F to 40F. But 0.2 MOA would only bring down the groups one inch. Maybe I changed something else in AB and don't remember.
Looking back at the target pic for 2014-12-02 I see the lower centered group (the three together orange dots on current pic) had cross hairs (blue cross hair) much lower down. So, that means the issue is probably aiming. None of this stuff is flat or level in the field, the target is canted, I am canted, etc. The world on my land is a canted kind of place. But, does that mean I was "artifically" low on 12/02 and that really my 475yd "zero" is not? AB says to hold 0.2 MOA low, so I will try cranking down one noch on the elevation turret. These are 1/4 inch clicks so that should move me down about 1.25 inches.
I'm not sure what bipod I had on there on 12/02. But I recorded the bipod and setting here today. If I had the Atlas bipod with the 3 inch spacers, I could've had me up higher and been aiming "down" more. Not sure that should matter, but trying to remember anything that might be different.
Here is pic of rifle today.
1100-1230
40F
15 mph S
Goal: .338LM practice with wind, 475yds.
Environment: Not a "white" Christmas, but at least a "bright" one. Sunny with strong breeze from South. Still a bit muddy from the "great thaw" a few days ago, but the wind will work to dry us out.
Equipment: .338LM, L&S 8.5-25x TMR, LRF, Kestrel, Lapua 250. Here is "dope" card, though it is not validated, except at 475yds (maybe).
Activity: Setup target and the FP. Distance showed at 474yds with the LRF. Read wind for 2m. High was 16.8, low was 8.5, average was 11.1. Direction was 210 degrees off the bullet path. Dope card says 0.8 mils for 10 mph. So rounding this up to 0.9 for the 11.1 reading and then dividing by 3, as, at this distance, I run the scope on minimum power at 8.5 (this is an sfp) I got 0.3 mils. As I was laying down on the gun, the wind dropped, so I held 0.2 left.
G01 - 475yds - 3rds - Group size 5 3/8 inches
For second group I did not want to use data from first group, so started over. Read wind for 2m. High was 18.4, average was 13.9, Direction still 210 degress of the bullet path. Calling this 15 mph, dope card says to hold 1.2 mils, dividing by 3, we get 0.4. But again, as I was lying down on the gun, the wind died a bit, so I held 0.3 left.
G02 - 475yds - 3rds, Group size 4.75 inches
Results: The five orange dots are from previous attempt to do this same thing (see earlier report). I would call the first group a "miss" as it is just over 1 MOA, I think for this rifle, at this distance over 1 MOA is a miss. In this case, not a bad miss, but still a miss. One factor could be I'm shooting from the side of the hill and I wasn't lined up behind the rifle sufficiently during the first group. I was getting "pull to the left" (down the hill). The second group I adjusted for this and slide my ass farther of the hill, then I could see the barrel rise on the shot, but not move left or right.
As for the wind calling, I'd call that acceptable.
The most concering aspect is that the groups seem to be high. I tried to aim at the same spot every time, which was the center of the three orange dots (which I could see). That put the cross hairs about where I marked the "cross" on the target pic (green cross hair). I didn't take the AB with me, because (a) this is a known distance shoot and (b) I had the dope card attached to the gun. But, back in the house before I left, the AB said to hold down two MOA and I can't figure out why that is. The only thing I changed was the temperature I took the zero temp down from 70F to 40F. But 0.2 MOA would only bring down the groups one inch. Maybe I changed something else in AB and don't remember.
Looking back at the target pic for 2014-12-02 I see the lower centered group (the three together orange dots on current pic) had cross hairs (blue cross hair) much lower down. So, that means the issue is probably aiming. None of this stuff is flat or level in the field, the target is canted, I am canted, etc. The world on my land is a canted kind of place
. But, does that mean I was "artifically" low on 12/02 and that really my 475yd "zero" is not? AB says to hold 0.2 MOA low, so I will try cranking down one noch on the elevation turret. These are 1/4 inch clicks so that should move me down about 1.25 inches. I'm not sure what bipod I had on there on 12/02. But I recorded the bipod and setting here today. If I had the Atlas bipod with the 3 inch spacers, I could've had me up higher and been aiming "down" more. Not sure that should matter, but trying to remember anything that might be different.
Here is pic of rifle today.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
2014-12-26
1100-1300
40F
5 mph NNE
Goal: .338LM practice with wind, 600yds.
Environment: Misty, hardly a breeze, still muddy, rain forecast for later. Just as yesterday's wind removed most of the standing pools of water, Mother Nature will come and replenish them tonight. I turned off our well pump 3 days ago and the secondary source, one of our springs has continuously fill up our cistern, so rain is good.
Equipment: .338LM, L&S 8.5-25x TMR, LRF, Kestrel, Lapua 250. Dope card unchanged.
Activity: Setup target and went on foot today to the FP. Distance showed at 599yds and 600yds with the LRF. Read wind for 2m. Avg was 4.4 at about 15 degrees off the bullet path. I was lying in waist high grass and could not see the target when I was on the ground. In fact, at first, I could not see the target through the scope either, too much grass in the way. So I laid down in front of the rifle at 90 degrees from the rifle and rolled forward through three full rolls and back to clear the field of fire (I've used this technique successfully before) but no joy, still could not see the target, too many "tall weeds" still in front of me. Looking left and right I saw some clearer spots. There was plenty of cow dung, at least 1-2 months old laying around, but I had no choice, I picked a smaller pile and slid to the left 5 yds. Then even though I could not see the target from the ground with MKIEB or even with the scope on 8.5x I cranked up to 25x and I could see the target. The combination of the mist and the vegetation made the target fairly hazy, but I adjusted parallax and at least now it was clear haze.
I decided not to hold for wind.
Fired three rounds aiming at the point indicated with the cross hairs I could not see the dots.
G01 - 600yds - 3rds - Group size 6.125 inches which is just under 1 moa (1.047*6 = 6.28)
Results: I think this shows I do need to make an elevation adjustment. I need to drop at least one click off the elevation on the dope card. I said I would do it yesterday, but I can be stubborn sometimes, but after today I am convinced. And it appears I should have held a tiny bit right as well. That would have been 4.4 mph, call it 30 degrees off the bullet path. I had cranked 25x, so no sfp adjustment. Dope card said one mil for 10 mph, so call it 0.5 mil, but then need to third for angle to the wind. So 0.133 mils. From the evidence, it appears this should have been rounded up for wind being higher at high elevation. I am at about 1320 feet above sea level here and target is about 1180 feet. Just 0.1 mil of hold at 600yds would be 3.6 inches. WIth the TMR reticle, I can hold quarters (.25) easily, but to hold 0.1 level of granularity consistently requires some hoping!
1100-1300
40F
5 mph NNE
Goal: .338LM practice with wind, 600yds.
Environment: Misty, hardly a breeze, still muddy, rain forecast for later. Just as yesterday's wind removed most of the standing pools of water, Mother Nature will come and replenish them tonight. I turned off our well pump 3 days ago and the secondary source, one of our springs has continuously fill up our cistern, so rain is good.
Equipment: .338LM, L&S 8.5-25x TMR, LRF, Kestrel, Lapua 250. Dope card unchanged.
Activity: Setup target and went on foot today to the FP. Distance showed at 599yds and 600yds with the LRF. Read wind for 2m. Avg was 4.4 at about 15 degrees off the bullet path. I was lying in waist high grass and could not see the target when I was on the ground. In fact, at first, I could not see the target through the scope either, too much grass in the way. So I laid down in front of the rifle at 90 degrees from the rifle and rolled forward through three full rolls and back to clear the field of fire (I've used this technique successfully before) but no joy, still could not see the target, too many "tall weeds" still in front of me. Looking left and right I saw some clearer spots. There was plenty of cow dung, at least 1-2 months old laying around, but I had no choice, I picked a smaller pile and slid to the left 5 yds. Then even though I could not see the target from the ground with MKIEB or even with the scope on 8.5x I cranked up to 25x and I could see the target. The combination of the mist and the vegetation made the target fairly hazy, but I adjusted parallax and at least now it was clear haze
. I decided not to hold for wind.
Fired three rounds aiming at the point indicated with the cross hairs I could not see the dots.
G01 - 600yds - 3rds - Group size 6.125 inches which is just under 1 moa (1.047*6 = 6.28)
Results: I think this shows I do need to make an elevation adjustment. I need to drop at least one click off the elevation on the dope card. I said I would do it yesterday, but I can be stubborn sometimes, but after today I am convinced. And it appears I should have held a tiny bit right as well. That would have been 4.4 mph, call it 30 degrees off the bullet path. I had cranked 25x, so no sfp adjustment. Dope card said one mil for 10 mph, so call it 0.5 mil, but then need to third for angle to the wind. So 0.133 mils. From the evidence, it appears this should have been rounded up for wind being higher at high elevation. I am at about 1320 feet above sea level here and target is about 1180 feet. Just 0.1 mil of hold at 600yds would be 3.6 inches. WIth the TMR reticle, I can hold quarters (.25) easily, but to hold 0.1 level of granularity consistently requires some hoping!