THERMAL SCOPE SIDE BY SIDE COMPARISON.

Discussion in 'Night Vision/Thermal' started by TEXASLAWMAN, Jul 22, 2014.

  1. Louis Richards

    Louis Richards LSB Member

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    So then if that is the case, I assume the optical scope will stay in 1X at all times, and all magnification will be done via the digital magnification of the thermal CO itself, correct? Magnifying the optical scope will do nothing more than give you a larger picture of the display and other than maybe needing a close up view of that, I don't really see this it as an advantage whatsoever. Yep, I see this as a military application only, where having your rifle zerod at all times could be the difference between life or death.

    So I would like to take a poll, for anybody who owns the Zeus. How many people can say yes it does or no it doesn't to having it maintain zero after removing it and putting it back on? Yes I know you should always anyway, but hypothetically, if an urgent situation were to come up and there was no time to do so, it's a handy thing to know what the "rough" odds are I will be either "pretty dang close" or "forgetaboutit"

    And what does this mean? Is it fancy wording for meaning the POI does not change as you zoom in?
    • Electronic zoom reticle tracking capability maintaining boresight
     
  2. rgilbert

    rgilbert LSB Active Member LSB TURKEY BUZZARD PRESERVATION SOCIETY SUS VENATOR CLUB

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    No! Do not magnify using the thermal. You will get point of impact shift. Always magnify with the optical scope.

    The Zues returns to zero or close enough +/- 1" point of impact in my experience.

    That means if you use it as a stand alone unit.
     
  3. Louis Richards

    Louis Richards LSB Member

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    Well, I guess it's all above my head :) Difital zoom is basically the exact same thing as an optical zoom of the thermal display, correct?

    Either way, you' re not really zooming in on anything, you're increasing the size of the display picture? Digitally or optically? That right?

    So then why does it matter if it's 1x optical using digital zoom, vs optical zoom of the thermal display?

    I have to say I am in the middle of figuring this all out for myself. And what I mean is my set up. I have a great 3 to 12 Bushnell A.R. 15 drop-down scope. I love it and it's very accurate. I am trying to figure out whether to mount the 640 on another AR and have it as a dedicated night weapon, or swap back-and-forth between my main weapon.

    I have night vision with IR laser so I can still have my night time capability and leave the 640 on another weapon. So the clip on has always intrigued me and was definitely in the running for what I wanted. Plus anyone who's been following me, knows that I have always really wanted a 1X and using the clip on as a dedicated scope gave me 1X. Clip on was going to be my purchase

    But than after reading the reviews you all did here and Brian's comments that the thermal as a dedicated will ALWAYS be better, I chose that route. Now I just have to choose what I want to utilize where :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2015
  4. wigwamitus

    wigwamitus LSB Active Member

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    In a mathematical world (I am a mathematician by training) things can be exact. In the real world nothing is exact. So it is correct to say any rifle mounted optic will shift a bit if you remove it and then put it back on.
    However, in the real world we are not concerned with exact, we are not mathematicians, we are engineers, so we care about "good enough on the current day for the current purpose" ... and in that case ... if you use something like Larue rail clips to make sure you put the optic back on at exactly the same rail position and you have the tension of the optic mount adjusted optimally and you practice taking it off and putting it one 100+ times and checking zero each time ... then the probability of being close enough will be very high.

    If I could only have one thermal (as I did last year) I would have a clipon ... and I did have a clipon ... an Apollo .. it could be a handheld monocular scanner and it could be a dedicated 1x rifle scope ... and oh by the way ... it could be a clipon ... I used it all three ways on 4 different rifles for 16 months ...
    Now I have a q-14 and a Zeus. The q-14 is a better handheld monocular and the Zeus is a better scope.
    So basically just repeating what TLM said above.
    Clipon is better at being flexible and trying to be all things ... but dedicated scanners and dedicated scopes are better at those specific tasks. In an ideal world I would have several truck loads of each :D
     
  5. wigwamitus

    wigwamitus LSB Active Member

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    Re-stated, repeat-ability of remounting an optic on a rifle has perhaps nothing to do with the optic itself. It has to do with the optic mount ... and it perhaps mostly has to do with the person doing the re-mounting ... hence the need to practice and measure results ... to converge towards near perfection in terms of repeat-ability. Maybe the mount matters the most, but the human is the biggest variable, so if you strive for maximum repeat-ability, get the best mount you can (bobro from Aaron per what I hear) and then conduct practice while measuring your results, I think that will get you there.
     
  6. Dinmax82

    Dinmax82 New Member

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    Concerning the LWTS and Flir T70, are they just more money because they are in use by the military and technically more durable?

    But their lenses are smaller then the Apollo scopes. From my reading it's the size of the lens along with the resolution that makes a big difference. Will the Apollo 42mm, LWTS and Flir all work similarly in high humidity situations then? Might the Apollo with the 100mm lens outperform the others? By performance I'm not looking for detail like hairs and etc, just being able to spot targets in bad conditions.
     
  7. wigwamitus

    wigwamitus LSB Active Member

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    Great questions, but getting great answers might be tough ... how many "neutral" people exist which have used a lot of the > $10k+ gear as well as a lots of the < $10k gear and are around to comment?

    ==

    I "believe" the jist of what you say is correct and hence my strategy has been to go for more lower cost devices and not for the "high end". Like I have 2 PVS-14s, 2 x i2 clipons and 2 thermals ... if I had gone for the $10k to $20k devices I would have 2-3 devices total.

    I just went outside with q-14 and saw a white blob and about 75 yds ... I knew it was a critter because it stood out so much and because I saw it move ... and based on movement I decided it was probably a rabbit. I then went in and grabbed the Zeus and took another look ... now it was a critter with some definition, not just a blob. It had no giant tail, so that rules out a number of critters and I finally got it to move laterally and then could see the outline of the rabbit. Turned on DVR and got a bit of video I'll post later. Point is the larger lenses do make a difference ...
     
  8. chthump

    chthump LSB Member

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    I love ready these post, after much research, I'm going the 2nd upper with dedicated thermal, favorite upper with favorite daytime scope, dont have to worry about loosing zero, for $300 +- bucks, push 2 pins out and im ready for sundown
     
  9. wigwamitus

    wigwamitus LSB Active Member

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    OMG ... that sounds too easy ... I think we have a genius !!! :)
    Provided you can always swap with the same lower :D
    But this is a great idea!

    ==

    As long as you aren't on foot for too long during the outing !
     
  10. JPK

    JPK LSB Active Member

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    Your only issue might be that your favorite upper becomes the one with the thermal mounted!

    Hope so!

    JPK
     
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  11. Louis Richards

    Louis Richards LSB Member

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    Something I'm still having a slight issue with. Is an optical scope at 3X able to see closer objects than a thermal at 3X by design?

    My Bushnell 3 to 12, at 3X, can see an object 10 feet away and still be clear even though it's 3X. Zeus 640 at 3X blurry that close.

    Looked at specs says 10 meters min. For me more like 15 meters min to get decent clear. Can see 10 but blurryISH. Do you think that's an issue worth sending it in on maybe over exaggeration at 10 m?

    Also took out during the day and the auto NUC went crazy. One sec bright, one sec dark. Back and forth and forth and back. Not always but sometimes. Can this auto feature be shut off?
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2015
  12. Brian Shaffer

    Brian Shaffer Pro Staff Third Coast Thermal SUS VENATOR CLUB LoneStarBoars Supporter

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    Something I'm still having a slight issue with. Is an optical scope at 3X able to see closer objects than a thermal at 3X by design?
    That really depends on the scope.

    My Bushnell 3 to 12, at 3X, can see an object 10 feet away and still be clear even though it's 3X. Zeus 640 at 3X blurry that close.
    Well, the min distance listed, as you know, is 10m, not 10 feet.

    Looked at specs says 10 meters min. For me more like 15 meters min to get decent clear. Can see 10 but blurryISH. Do you think that's an issue worth sending it in on maybe over exaggeration at 10 m?

    Mine can focus inside of 10m just fine. It really doesn't matter if WE think it is an issue worth sending the scope back. All that matters is if you think it is an issue significant enough to send it back.

    Also took out during the day and the auto NUC went crazy. One sec bright, one sec dark. Back and forth and forth and back. Not always but sometimes. Can this auto feature be shut off?
    That wasn't auto NUC, but AGC. It cannot be turned off on the regular Zeus model. If you think it was the NUC, then read your manual for instructions.
     
  13. Louis Richards

    Louis Richards LSB Member

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    Well, phrased different, if YOURS didn't quite cut it at 10 meters, would you send it back? Not experienced enough to know if little things like that matter in the field or mos importantly, if that even represents a problem?
     
  14. Brian Shaffer

    Brian Shaffer Pro Staff Third Coast Thermal SUS VENATOR CLUB LoneStarBoars Supporter

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    Call Armasight and discuss the matter with them. Actually measure your distances because you call so that you have real information and not "it looked more like 15m."
     
  15. gatorcountry

    gatorcountry New Member

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    Hey fellas, new member here with an armasight question that I was hoping someone could help with. I see 2 versions of the zeus scopes, one pro and one none pro. What I notice is the non pro is water resistant and the pro is water proof, my question is how water resistant is the non pro? could it stand freezing temps the the point of heavy frost and then warm up temps to thaw and soak your gear?
     
  16. TEXASLAWMAN

    TEXASLAWMAN Lone Star Boars Owner LSB TURKEY BUZZARD PRESERVATION SOCIETY SUS VENATOR CLUB LoneStarBoars Supporter

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    The power switch on the non pro is a know spot for water to get in. I have only seen one that got wet from several days hunting in a downpour. The results were it would not turn off you would have to pull the batteries. Freezing temps frost and thaw have not messed up any of mine.

    The other major difference is the recoil rating on the pro line they are rated to 50 BMG while the standard is rated to .308
     
  17. gatorcountry

    gatorcountry New Member

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    thanks for the input lawman, that really helps me on the deciding factor. Recoil isnt an issue as its a subsonic setup and not much recoil, I noticed the recent firmware update thats been talked about and I can only assume that there are alot of older models still on the shelves, if I wound up with a unit that wasnt up to date, will armasight take care of that?
     
  18. gatorcountry

    gatorcountry New Member

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    how can you tell if a model has the older firmware? Im looking at a pro 640 30hz 1-8x30, 99% of my shots will be inside of 100 yards being that im using a subsonic cartridge, however I have good views out to 500-600 yards, this 1-8 will give me a good wide field of view, but will i be able to see things comin from the distance?
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
  19. Jhop

    Jhop LSB Active Member SUS VENATOR CLUB

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    I sent an Email to Armasight. They called me the next day to verify my serial numbers and part numbers to determine if my Thermal qualified for the firmware upgrade. The part number on my units were: TAT163WN7ZEUS31
     
  20. Drift

    Drift LSB Member

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    There are international standards on waterproofing. I believe IPX 7 and Ipx 8 are the highest for electronics. I dont have the specs on the Zeus vs pro handy, but my memory is the regular is IPX7 and the pro is 8. ..You might want to check all that...I'm Irish, tomorow is St Paddys Day and my memory is fading fast
     
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