Practicing with Night Vision

[wigwamitus]

... dust and heavy smoke might be tougher " ...

My experience with dust and smoke AND NV/thermal is virtually non-existent. Those who fought in Iraq/Afghanistan with NV/thermal will have infinitely better data than I on this topic. Around here where I am ... I do have some experience with dust and smoke ... and they both get in your eyes and cause irritation ... and a tendency to want to close your eyes .. or even worse rub them ... I've forced myself to learn not to do either.

DUST
The wind blows a lot around here ... and we have a lot of dry conditions ... this leads to dust ... also when I am operating tractor or mowers ... dust gets in the air around me. I wear vented eye pro (ski goggles) a lot because they don't fog up much ... I also have loProEyePro (low profile eye protection) that fits underneath pvs-14 ... for use while riding 4-wheeler (where my face and eyes get banged into by lots of what not) ... dust gets your eyes regardless ... and I'm sure in Iraq or Afghanistan ... in some area ... if there were "dust storms' it would be much worse ... perhaps bad enough to shut down combat operations ... I lived in Arizona for 2 years ... and when the dust storms came up ... we stayed in doors.

But as to effects of dust on NV/thermal I have no data.

SMOKE
My experience with smoke around here is in conjunction with burning our pastures in the spring. I and my neighbors burn our pastures every 1-3 years, conditions permitting. Primary purpose is to influence the natural battle between grass land and forest. Before the European occupation ... mother nature determined that in the area now know as the flint hills ... the grassland would predominate ... but she burned the grassland occasionally to reinforce her determination. Once the European occupation began ... the humans brought in more trees ... and hence the battle between the grassland and the forest now needs to be assisted by the humans if we which to preserve some semblance of the tall grass prairie as it was before we arrived ... and we do wish this ... because the cattle thrive on the grass .. not the forest ... and this is cattle country. It is too rocky (limestone) to have much good crop land ... this is pasture land ... and we want to preserve ... OK .. end of sermon on why we burn
So we burn ... and of course that causes smoke. Due to the fact that I have a tractor and a sprayer and make myself available ... I help my neighbors and they help me ... and together we burned about 800 acres last spring ... not a lot .. but plenty of excitement. Mainly we need to keep it from getting too hot in the woods adjacent to our pastures. We are trying to burn the saplings on the edges of our pastures ... not the "forests" owned by land speculators ... who own land (but never visit it) adjacent to ours. It gets smoky. I do NOT wear vented eyepro in these cases. My job is to dive into the bad parts of the fire and put them out ... I am the long range water vehicle. I try to spot the areas of most danger and be near them when needed. But it does get smoky around these fires ... and it is hard to see ... I don't have a full "real" fire suit. but I wear a lot of clothes and can stand enough smoke and flames to get the job done and not pass out or die in the process ( so far ). I wear two layers of masks over my mouth and nose ... so I can stand 1-2 mins in the smoke depending on how thick it is ... but then I have to move out ... and regroup and go back in ...

But as to use of NV/thermal in smoke I have no data.

==
In either case of DUST or SMOKE around here ... so far ... at night ... we have turned on white lights and continued to operate ... we have not used NV/thermal.
==

... In watching many videos early on, One of the items that was touted heavily was the fact that you could see through smoke ...

I would not put much stock in manufacturers videos about their gear. They will show their gear in a positive light ... you can bet on it.

... "IR illuminators also offer better quality as they can perform high-speed video capture; see through darkness, mist, fog, rain and snowfalls"

Huh? IR-illuminators can perform high-speed video capture !!??
There must be some missing paragraphs in this pronouncement ... makes no sense to me ... perhaps others can tell me what I am missing !

Any light source I've seen, whether visible or not ... in misty conditions ... bounces off the droplets in the air ... on the way down to the target ... and on the way back ...
And the effect on your eyes .. is a lot of brightness in your eyes ... and washing out the target ...

As to ir-illuminator ability to perform video capture .. either high speed or not ... I have never heard of that ... much less experienced it ... makes no sense to me ... wrong words in the wrong sentence
==

... I am leaving for Moab desert in Utah in a few days. I plan on taking the 4 x 4 and heading as far back in the back country as my truck will get me. ..

Wow, sounds like gobs of fun !!! Have a great (and safe) time !!!


==

And am I understanding you right to say night vision would've had the same issue with mist?

In the two examples I gave ... I used NV in both ... and thermal in one. And yes .. both (including NV) have issues with "mist".

For a third example ... day time fog ... MKIEB visibility 75yds ... I grabbed apollo 42mm 336-60 and could see Turkey's out to 250 yds in our alfalfa patch, but I could not see them at all with MKIEB.
So the difference between paper targets and the "hot" buggy in my previous two examples is that the Turkeys were living creatures ... and their heat/emissivity profile still allows them to stand out against a wet background ... more so than even the 'hot' buggy.
So thermal CAN see the critters in heavy mist ... but perhaps nothing else ...
In these conditions ... you see critters floating is a sea of grey .. with no clue as to where they are exactly on the land in front of you ... you have no visual queues about the terrain ... you only see the critters floating in a sea of grey ... so if you are shooting a flat flying round ... and you happen to guess the approximate distance based on the size of the critter images ... then you can still hit them ... even though you don't know the distance exactly.
So thermal is useful in bad conditions versus critters ... even though you cannot navigate with it .. unless you want to die !
NV is a little safer in bad conditions ... in my experience ... as I indicate above .. but MKIEB should be used also to double check what is working best.

==
Again ... I'd say no single technology ... NV/Thermal/WhiteLight/MKIEB trumps the others in all conditions ... there is no "best" ...

 

[wigwamitus]

... One of your earlier post you made mention that the price of two mono was in the same area as one pair of goggles. In the comparisons that I am doing I do not see those figures matching up at least not without getting lower technology. ...

I gave examples, correct?

Please share your examples

 

[Louis Richards]

The high-speed video capture was simply talking about the IR laser will light a stationary object or one moving at speed. So if you're watching a train go by in front of you, the IR laser will light it up as you video camera it. Basically, it was a stupid thing to say and it's a given and they just worded it like that to sound fancy. That's like saying a flashlight can do high-speed video. Well of coarse!!!

Examples you gave were for a "specific" line of equipment yes. But mine was "general" examples concerning Armasight equipment. Generally speaking at the Armasight website, if you look at ALL the PVS7 gen three they offer compared to ALL the PVS 14 gen three they offer, price ranges are almost the same. So I didn't list the comparison because it wasn't a specific to a specific, but a large general category to a large general category. So there were 20+ units in both categories and you would just have to go to the website and go under mono and then go under goggles. All the gen 3 mono's were $3200-$4400. All the gen 3 goggles? Same exact range, give or take a couple hundred dollars. So from what I see, the goggles would be half the price and thus a large savings in money.

See you have to be careful, because I am holding you to a higher standard than most. Right now your knowledge seems to be superior to anyone else's if for any other reason you actually use your equipment and seem to be doing a "review" almost constantly whereas other reviews are done and than left alone as a sticky. So you actually seem to be using your equipment in other words. Well, take that back, let's just say others may be using it as much as well, and maybe as knowledgeable if not more, as well. But if they are, they sure aren't writing about it and you're really the only one who actually writes about it constantly Add in the fact that we both happened to have bought the exact same scope, well, I am trying to follow in your footsteps thats for sure.

I'm a licensed master plumber (repair) and have been for 35 years until recently retired from my own company. All of my guys followed my lead so well that I was able to retire and they have become the new "ME", so perhaps I'm trying to apply my own theory that I utilized so well with my employees and apply it to you and thermal scopes. LEAD buddy LEAD. For now you have at least one dedicated follower, though I only truly understand half of what you say if even that much.

There are many opinions on the subject and the majority, ALMOST the overwhelming, do tend to agree that monoculars are the way to go and accepted that the 14's are a better option over the 7. But it's not completely clear cut. There are still many many fans of the sevens and that's all that they will use.

Over and over I read and they say as one of the main reasons, is because it can be handheld or weapon mounted. It's always been a little weird when you hear that something can be weapon mounted or handheld, trying to list different reasons that is better. I discount that as a reason. I mean what can't be handheld? I can take any scope specifically designed to be mounted on a weapon and use it in my hand Plus many of the ones dedicated to a seven will say that in all the years they have seen them in use, they have yet to actually see anybody mount it to a weapon, just not done. They are normally helmet mounted.

I used to be a member of the AR15 forum, but discontinued my membership because it became infiltrated with too many hot young guns who like to do nothing but start crap. In short, there's too many wildcats over there and they over run the good knowledge with the stupid comments. But it is STILL a wealth of information from some very experienced people... If you can just get to them after jumping the young gun hurdles looking to impress everybody with keyboard muscles.

The main reason I personally want the goggles is 1) to drive at night with them I see that as a major advantage to survival. And 2) I have read and probably agree that you will have much less of a tendency to get lopsided.

But I like the "twice as much light" with 2-14's and so if I could pick up two at Armasight for the same price as the goggles in Gen 3, I think I would consider that as a very viable option. But based upon what I'm seeing, that's not possible.

 

[Louis Richards]

Let me add before comments are made, and I don't want to open up a door for such heated things. But I have chosen personally to only go with Armasight equipment. I've done the research long before I bought their equipment and just simply decided that all things considered, they are right for me.

I havent read nice things about ATN and though there may be some other manufacturers, Armasight seems to be the most standup company that stands behind their products. But most importantly, they start by not having to worry about it to begin with by making good products from the get go. That's not meant to ruffle feathers or open up conversations, just meant so that others will understand where I'm coming from and to help with vendors in case they want to contact me.

Before I decided to spend $10,000, I spent literally months researching this topic. Dredged up and dug up every possible review and complaint I could get my hands on, concerning products on many companies. I was not about to drop that kind of money just to have a product fail 2 yrs from now and have the manufacturer tell me "sorry there's nothing we can do."
,
Armasight, consistently came out on top of that research.

 

[Louis Richards]

Not trying to beat a dead horse in the bushy, but I went ahead and spent a good solid hour tonight. Been so long since I pulled out my bushy equinox that I noticed it was 6X and maybe why I haven't used it much. It may just be that I so much more prefer a crisp black-and-white shot then I do the yellowish that I always see with gen3.

And I guess this all comes down to walking around the woods. Because this is what started the whole thing again. And I guess I am asking myself if I am so happy with my bushy, then why not just use my flashlight to orientate me at a place I want to be in the woods and then sit back and wait. Again I guess it comes down to stealth and being able to creep through the woods so no one can see me, though I would have to work on being heard because I'm a bit sloppy as I walk. Careless is a better word.

But I took two houses, approximately 100 yards away, and look at the darkest spot possible, the little alley between both houses. For all practical purposes, it was a black dark. There was absolutely no way whatsoever I could not even come close to seeing if anything would've been there.

Pulled out my 640 and yes I could see the area but of course there is nothing live out there so it was dark. Pulled out my bushy, and once again, I was just thrown up against the wall at how this thing produced. It has three brightness levels and three IR levels including an off, so 4 options.The off IR produces a yellowish color like you would see with gen devices. You can still see very well, but it's grainy and blurry like something gen1 would produce.

But put the IR on and it's just simply beyond words. Yellow goes away and a vivid black-and-white shows up. You can play with it to where low level IR 1 with a high brightness is equal to IR 3 hi with low brightness. I could literally see the grass clear as day. I love the fact that the focusing ring is so easy to turn, something I would die for on my 640. I'm not just talking clear, I am talking crispy clear. Extreme definition and visual with absolutely no grainy whatsoever. Just a beautiful, clear crisp picture of the alleyway in a vivid black and white view.

I am just pondering to myself, if this thing has such fantastic technology and I am so impressed with it, why look further? My only gripe is it has a narrow FOV, but that's expected with 6X. It can go up digital times three so 18X. And as expected, it's more grainy as you go up, but much better than my 640 did as I increased it.

I can mount it on my AR to complement my thermal though I haven't quite figured out how to make it easily accessible for my eyes. But I think a Quick release mount with an IR laser would pretty much guarantee me to nail anything I wanted to VERY clearly up to 150 yards. Don't have enough room out here to go over that but I am sure it would reach much further.

I'm going to purchase the 3X tonight on Amazon and give it another whack. I just cannot possibly imagine a clearer picture in night vision than this thing is producing, it is simply that clear, and for a lousy couple hundred dollars. I can honestly make the statement that it has "maxed out" at a clear and vivid picture to where nothing else would or could impress me more.

I cannot imagine for the life of me figure why manufacturers are not taking this many many steps further trying to produce units on a more massive scale. This technology is so impressive why not? Funny thing is, in the more desirable range, 6X, which is very hard to come by with Standard NV devices, is where it gives the best results. I'm looking for 1X and its not available

As I've been told, there is no one device for many chores. But for a long, 100 to 300 yard shot at night, which to date I have never needed to take. This would definitely be what I would use. I wish I had a camera so I could take a picture of it. I may try to use my iPhone and see if it works. But if anybody is looking for a night vision device and you are on a budget, there would be no doubt in my mind what I would purchase.

I can't wait to get out to Moab where you can see for miles in one direction and give this equipment a thorough look see. I am positively sure it will be in this domain, where the 3X on the 640 will be much appreciated.

 

[Louis Richards]

These pictures coming up are taken with my iPhone in my right hand and the bushy in the left. I am very shaky and almost impossible to get a good picture. This truck is at about 100 yards away in darkness with minimal light. I'm using no zoom whatsoever just the standard 6X. The built-in IR was too powerful and was actually too bright and I should have lowered it. The next picture is what I said above, the alleyway between two houses that is 100% pitch black, also 100 yards. The pictures you see represent probably about 65% clarity of what you're really going to see in reality. In other words, it's MUCH clearer and vivid real time then you're going to see in this picture of shaky hands. I promise you that absolutely ANY blurriness or distortion that you see is because of my hands not being able to be stable and get a solid picture and is because I am moving as I took the pics.

Crappy pics with a $250 digital NV device... I'm sorry, it just doesn't get much better. If I had a tripod, two of them and a nice camera, these pictures were clear enough to put a frame around them. I don't see the advantage of spending $3500 because I do not believe the view is going to be any better than I have here, if not actually less. All I need to do now is find this digital in 1X and think I have accomplished my task for much less money, about what I spend, sad to say, a week on cigarettes.. $75 carton, 3 cartons week <----- True statement.

If anybody is interested enough other than me, and wants to see more pics, I will go buy a tripod tomorrow and set up some stable images. But I suspect that its only me that's so excited

Starting to seriously wonder if manufacturers are hesitant to switch over to this much cheaper digital technology because of a sales/profit kind of situation... Military contracts and such which are so highly lucrative. There are already several articles talking about how cheap digital night vision is being compared to gen3.

 

[Louis Richards]

 

[wigwamitus]

... All of my guys followed my lead so well that I was able to retire and they have become the new "ME" ...

This is an excellent way to LEAD and exactly what I do though in a different field ... software development
==

... I used to be a member of the AR15 forum ...

I've never been a member of the AR-15 forum due to their so called "shill" rules ... basically I would not be able to post what I post here ... over there ... BECAUSE I post about products from vendors like Armasight ... who don't pay as much as another vendor who will not be named in this sentence

I do read over there due to the reason you state ... for instance in the commo section ... great place to start reading about commo
==

... I have chosen personally to only go with Armasight ...

You are aware then when Armasight was formed and also when IR-Defense was formed, both were "break-aways" from ATN !?

One of my few "rules" about buying things ... is to not get hung up on a "vendor" but instead to get hung up on the process of buying ... understanding my requirements ... and then which products meet those requirements and which prices are lowest ... but I do not require that others follow my process!

That being said 4 of my 5 pieces of great which are >gen1 happen to be Armasight and one happens to be ATN ... but that is because at the time I bough, those guys had gear that met the requirements at the lowest cost and because I believed the customer sat. chain was adequate. I've not been disappointed. But I didn't buy direct in either case.

==

... you have to be careful, because I am holding you to a higher standard than most. Right now your knowledge seems to be superior to anyone else's if for any other reason you actually use your equipment ...

Thanks for the kind words, but be aware many of the members of this forum use their equipment plenty ... they just may not post in the same level of detail ... in fact I take flak for the level of detail I post here !!

On a scale of 1 to 5 on most forums my knowledge of NV/thermal compared to the avg might be a 4 ... on this one it might be a 2.5 ... just saying this is the "real" forum for NV/Thermal ... because these guys DO use their crap ... and if you read the hunting threads on this forum ... you will see that. I can't hunt with NV/Thermal in KS because it is not allowed ... so when in KS I can only practice with NV/Thermal and prepare to go to other nearby states where it is legal and I hope to be able to make 2-3 trips between now and next spring.

I don't know the percentage ... but let's say half of what I've learned I learned from Aaron and the other half from going out at night an average of 3 times a week since Feb 2013. Another 10% from reading the internet ...

==

... if this thing has such fantastic technology and I am so impressed with it, why look further ...

Great question! I would say if your requirements allow you to use ir-illum whenever needed, then there is no reason to look farther!

==
Nyx7, N-15,

Nxy7 - Gen3p - $4.000
N-15 - Gen3p, $7,300

Note the Nxy7 only has one tube ... the N-15 are true two tube goggles ... so comparing to dual pvs-14s you'd want to compare N-15.

PVS-14 - Gen3p MG, $3,900 so two would be $7,800 and with a mod armory bridge another $550 or $8,350

So yes, duals 14s are more in this case. I think I mentioned that should be the case, but the example I gave from **** was the other way around and I mentioned that was "poor pricing".

But "mil spec" 3p 14s are available for considerably less than $3,900, so not sure why I would want to pay $3,900 for them ... the MG (Manual Gain) is a useful feature ... and a buddy who has an ABNV 6/14 wishes he had an MG, as he lives in urban area and it is too bright ... I told him to get some filters to help take the edge off.
When I say "mil spec" I mean the device should have all parts interchangeable with a military PVS-14 ... and not that it necessarily be assembled by excelis or L-3. In this case, why does a PVS-14 have to be from Armasight? If the parts are all the same, then the only difference is support. PVS-14s to me, are a bit different than proprietary devices like Zeus ... not many people can fix Zeus if they break ... but there are plenty of people who can fix mil spec PVS-14 if they break ... so this difference means I don't feel the same way about where I buy a PVS-14.

==
Another option I mentioned before is a PVS-14 with a PAS-29(a) on it ... this gives you a form of fusion ... and I almost went with this ... this combination can be had with mounting gear for about $10k.

==

Show us some pics through the bushy with the ir-illum off !

That is Bright looking !!! I think I would get a headache!!

 

[wigwamitus]

Idea ... you have the bushy (and like it!) and you have the Zeus ... so with these two, you have a "kit" ... yes the bushy is 3x right? So that is an issue for the woods, but if you go slowly it is still doable.

But please rig up a lanyard for the Zeus so you don't drop it on a rock. I did this with my apollo. I got a lanyard from something else and a shoelace. I wrapped the lanyard around the top of the mount of the Apollo (do it around the top of the mount of the Zeus) and I tied 4 sqaure knots with the shoe lace at the corners of the mount and I was good to go and it never even hinted that is wanted to come loose. So I can let go of the thermal and know it would remain on my chest.

Then see if you can mount the bushy on your helmet ... or if you get a lower magnification version mount that you can mount on your helmet (or skull crushers or night cap). Then you can have both devices on your body and can be hands free if needed. Then with one hand carry a walking stick. Then you can brush spider webs out of the way and help mitigate falling in the woods.

That should give you a good "observer kit" and I've gone out like that many times. Doing that will help you learn if you need anything else as well as give you experience moving and seeing at night!

==
pic of apollo with lanyard

 

[Louis Richards]

It's a 6X bushy but I'm going to buy the 3X. I may still go with the Arm PVS7 because one of the vendors wrote me with an excellent price on it. One thing that really peaked my interest is the ghost model is actually a white phosphorous and the others are green, which obviously is my liking. The bushy 3X at $200 is not a major investment and so if I don't like it I can either send it back to Amazon or just keep it for that kind of cheap investment. As Wig says, it's always nice having multiple equipment to give to a friend.

I forgot that I do have a mini tripod for my spotting scope. Late tonight I will go out and tape the iPhone to the front of the bushy and mount on small tripod and do multiple shots of woods, vehicles and houses. As well with the different IR settings and brightness levels for it. It's one powerful built in IR and does have a habit to over brighten. If you look at the pick between the houses notice how it lit that tree up so bright it took away from the view behind it which is what I was actually looking for.

Unfortunately, they do not make digital 1x goggles. Truly amazing and I think there's an entire market out there just waiting for it to happen. Right now it's only mono and none made from Bushnell. The other companies offering 1X mono seem to be cheaper companies and so I have no way of knowing if their own technology is equal to the equinox Z line.

I love what you said about the mill spec. In other words it's just like the AR15? You made a very valid point that seriously got my attention. There's a lot of logic there. I guess the only question would be whether some mil spec is better than other mil spec and is that necessarily reflected by the different manufactures products? You went on to say that if the parts are the same then there is only support. When it came to thermal vision, support was absolutely everything to me to be honest. Because of the higher dollars involved. But again you make a valid point that on a $2000 unit, maybe support isn't as important as it was on the thermal vision investment.

I guess the question that comes to mind is simply this. Yes, mil spec represents a minimum standard as far as figment is concerned, I'm not actually sure that stands true for quality? I do not know the answer to that? Even so, if it did stand that mil spec also represented the minimum quality of a product as well as fitment issues, than like A.R. 15's, there are hundreds of mil spec replacement items that are not made equally and some much better than others, so same apply to tonight vision?

There are mill spec A.R. 15 triggers can cost anywhere from $40-$400. In your opinion, does the same hold true for night vision?

FYI, for my comparison, I only used the model that I was interested in purchasing, which was the PVS7 and not the NXY series

 

[Louis Richards]

Actually, they did make one. But it was made in Germany and I wrote the manufacturer for information. It was a very interesting unit and was different than others. You should watch the video it appeared to be pretty awesome for 1X digital goggles. Unfortunately I couldn't find anything close to a price or even an option to purchase it. So I can't say anything else about it.

paulson digital night vision goggles

 

[wigwamitus]

L.R. I will respond in a bit ... but I wanted to throw out an "O.T" question ...

==
With the Zeus, there came a part called "shutter eyeguard" ... a few days ago I pulled off the delivered "eyecup" and put on this "shutter eueguard" ... there seem to be tradeoffs ...

Pro ... the "shutter eyeguard" reduces splash coming out of the back of the Zeus which hits my face ... or anywhere else ... if the device is on.

Con ... you have to push on the eyeguard with the area between your nose and you eye inorder to "open up" the "shutter eyeguard" ... and there are more pleasant things to do.

Does anyone else use the "shutter eye guard" on their Zeus and have any feedback about it?

 

[Louis Richards]

No rush. And. 2.5 on a 640 is equal to a 5.0 on "thermal"

 

[Louis Richards]

I decided to do video vs pics, much easier cuz I can flip through the different settings as you're watching. It actually has 4 IR levels I was mistaken. 3,2,1,0 and then off . So 5 options. I also learned it really wasn't the IR levels affecting the brightness but the brightness itself. I'm starting to think the brightness is actually controlling the IR brightness, IF so, you would have 15 IR options which is nice.

Everything is about 100 yards. The first two pics are what it looks like tonight, pitch black. First pic is the house and the street light is to the right of it about 20'. 2nd pic is the white truck. The street lite is on the opposite side of the road from the truck.

I am super excited to see ARMASIGHT offers NV in white phosphate. I started researching this and found out that research shows people much prefer the black-and-white over the green. Not digital, but black-and-white. With that said, I am almost positive I'm going to go with the Armasight Ghost goggle. But haven't ruled out the mono yet. A shame I'm so happy with the digital I have, but it's not offered in a 1X goggle and the whole thing I'm looking for is to be able to walk around at night. I haven't tried yet what you recommended wig.

Anybody know the difference between the PVS7 and the NXY7? It's amazing companies have still not learned to explain their own dang product line and assumes everybody is an expert Navy Seal and knows the differences.

Specifications are great but is not the end-all. Please Armasight, when someone is deciding which one of YOUR product to buy, how about having an explanation of exactly what the differences are between your different models? Searched their own website, Plus Google and cannot seem to get a simple answer to a simple question, what is the difference between the 2 models? You would think this company would put that somewhere explaining, why one would want to buy the NXY versus the PVS. All I have learned is that it's proprietary and not mil spec, which to me would be a disadvantage.

Crap! Even at only 1 1/2 mins each video is too big to put in an email so I have to crop it now, plus max upload is 1 mb and I'm way over. First I flipped through all of the IR levels inc off and then I flipped through all of the brightness levels for each IR level so it took a little bit of time Always wanted to create a YouTube account so I guess this should be a good time to..

 

[Louis Richards]

 

[Louis Richards]

Cut me some slack guys, I am not a professional and I'm just kind of doing this for kicks. I had to crop some of the videos because they were too large so you will not be able to see all of the cycles. The most important thing though, is the clarity is MUCH better than the pics last night. Not quite the same as in reality, but dang close enough that you can understand what I'm saying. The worst part is that gap or area you see between the iPhone / eyepiece and the actual display. In reality, it's nowhere near that bad and just not even noticed or recognized when you're using it. Your eyes just gravitate towards the display. But for some reason in the video, it really draws attention to that area and looks like you're staring through a toilet paper roll. Pay no mind, once you get it out there all you're going to see is basically the display. It's there, but I never noticed it until this video . It was misty and sprinkling again so I had to rush through it and once again didn't take my time as I should have.

Now I am I insane or what? That is about as clear of a picture as you're going to get with any night vision device, GEN 3 included. And for $250???? Geez wheez. 100 yards away and you couldn't even tell there was a truck parked in the driveway or a house sitting there. Two seconds later, it's so bright you need to put on a pair of sunglasses All of them have 3X digital. But I did not utilize it, this is base 6X. Considering how much money you would have to spend on magnifiers to get to 6X with intensifier NV, this thing does it without hardly breathing and right out of the box!

Now I realize all of the obvious advantages to the high-tech stuff don't get me wrong. But I can absolutely guarantee you if they produced this (3x, 4.5x, 6x) in 1X goggles, I would pull $300 bills out of my wallet and never look back and be as happy as a guy with $4000 GEN three goggles.

As it is, I am trying to find 2- 1x digital monoculars and the headset to see if I can get there without breaking the bank. But it's going to be hard because I have to go through other companies and I have no idea if the quality equals this. And knowing me, I'm probably just going to follow through with the white phosphate technology and Armasight anyway. One of the vendors I spoke with tonight said that he understands and knows that digital has come a long ways and it's starting to compete heavily with high dollar NV.

Again I ask, am I insane or does $250 buy you Gen 2 for sure and even Gen3 clarity? In a device that's very simple and almost indestructible?

One other thing to keep in mind, is I'm not even coming close to showing the true capability of this thing at only 100 yards. When I first bought it I was at my daughters farm and we were a good 500 yards back from the main house in the old log cabin. I would sit out on the porch at night and could clearly see them sitting on the back porch 500 yards away. It's so powerful that 100 yards it's really just too close and bright and lights up too much, if there's such a thing. 200 yards and it really settles down to a beautiful image. All I know is to go from pitch black to that vivid White truck for $250 is pretty amazing technology affordable for everybody.

Wig, if you want a really good idea of what it was like with no IR whatsoever, at the very very end of video three like the last 10 seconds, your see where I went from nothing to putting it on. I did it many other times in all the videos, but that was the most noticeable and impressive to me, because the alleyway still looked pretty lit up.



Truck

Cars

Alleyway

Bushnell

 

[wigwamitus]

One tube versus two tubes ...

With dual 14s ... or a goggle with two tubes ... there is little difference ... price is a difference ... and for me the other difference is flexibility ... the ability to pull one of the 14s off my helmet and put it on a rifle or hand to a team mate. Can't do that with hardwired pvs-15 like devices.

Two tubes amplifies twice as much light as one tube.

Two tubes means at least one tube will be working if the first tube goes down (for instance not likely both batteries in dual 14s go down at the same instant).

==

PVS-7 versus PVS-14 ...

a.k.a. monocular with two eye pieces versus monocular with one eyepiece ...

If it was me, I'd go with the monocular with one eyepiece, instead of the monocular with two eye peices ...

Even though I have two 14s and a dual mount, I actually don't run duals most of the time ... though I would if I was doing something serious with a group, especially if I was driving with others in the vehicle. I would be responsible for a life other than my own in that situation.

So, I am usually out with just one 14 ... and I like it ... most of the time, there is useful input coming in through the unaided eye ... for instance there is a large TV tower about 4 miles NE of me and it has lots of red lights on it .. that TV tower is visible from many spots on my land ... and even in overcast conditions if I can see that tower I can quickly orient. I can usually see the red lights with my unaided eye ... but the green dots surprisingly rarely show up in the 14 ... that's one example. Being able to have one eye with natural night visiion is also useful. In theory about 30% of the time and in practice about 22.5% of the time, there is plenty of moon out there and I can see fine in the open pasture ... in that case the unaided eye significantly increases FOV and this would not be the case if I covered both eyes with eyepieces.
And finally if I want to hold a thermal up to an eye for a scan, I can use the unaided eye (if I'm willing to sacrifice natural NV) without having to move the 14 ... if I had a monocular with 2 eyepieces, I'd have to flip up the whole contraption.

And then there is weight. I suspect one reason I don't wear dual 14s more is the weight ... not worth the extra weight to have both up there most of the time. So, it would certainly not he worth the extra weight, to me, to have an extra eyepiece up there with no second tube in front giving additional benefits.
==
I think the main benefit of the monocular with two eyepeices is the brightness on the two eyes is balanced. For some this might reduce headaches.
I have walked around with a 14 on one eye and holding my apollo up to the other and gotten headaches. I think this is primarily due to the difference in brightness between the two devices. Eventually I learned to use "red hot" (or Sepia) to dramatically reduce the brightness in the thermal. This reduced the headaches significantly, increased stealth by having red (or brown) light instead of white coming out of the back of the device and even seemed to increase battery life. So I'm a believer of balancing the brightness to reduce headaches.
BUT, with one 14 I don't get headaches! I think this is because the difference in brightness between the green light in the 14 and what the unaided eye sees is not so great ... in other words, not nearly as much brightness difference as there was between the "white hot" pallet on the apollo and the 14.
I'm willing to accept that some might get headaches wearing a single 14 and for those maybe the extra weight and visual restrictions of the 7 are worth it ... for me they are not.

 

[wigwamitus]

2015-09-27
2130-2330
60F
5 MPH SE

Goals: Full kit walk.

Environment: Full "supermoon" lunar eslipse tonight ... I got in on part of it ... by the time the moon was rising enough to be visible, the eclipse had started ... it was a BIG moon ... but quickly when from silver/white to black splotchy redish ... through a 14 it was very bright .. through thermal visible ... through MKIEB visible.
Otherwise rather clear, milky way and known constellations all visible.

Equipment:

Lower left corner, not take, OPS Core helmet, I can mount the q-14 on this helmet as a solo device. I got the MDVR working on it in case I try this. Green cap, nice a warm, but did not take.

Upper left corner, .45acp, FOXPRO remote on lanyard, canteen, kneepads, TW Helmet with one 14.

Upper Right, pack with FOXPRO, pelican with second 14, two protein bars, two extra water bottles, L&S 15-45x spotter with ground tripod, 8 spare AA, 20 spare c123 surefire, 8 spare c123 tenergy, 1 9V. 1xT-20 LR IR ILLUM, 1x 1000L white light, 1 pair socks.

Center and lower right, primos trigger stick, 556(18) with zeus, 3 magazines with 18 rounds each, belt with LRF, 3x magnifier for pvs-14 and pouch with q-14. Kestrel.
Pockets had gloves, knife, 3L RGBW light and 300K white light.


Activity: Walked up to top of signal hill and setup. From here I can see maximum 4 miles to the N, NE. I can see 2200 yards to the West, 800 yards to the South and 600yds to the East. There is one tree and I left some grass and sapplings around the crest to break up viewing.
Stars were totally visible as was giant moon. I could see cows at 600yds to the South and at 1,200yds to the West, this is first time I've seen creatures that far away with the q-14. I can see these cows at out to 2,200yds when they are in the right spot, but tonight it was 1,200 ... they were brighter than I expected with the 640 q-14, brighter than I recall using the 336 apollo. I was using sepia cranked down in brightness quite a bit. It was still bright. I was holding the q-14 up to right eye with the 14 on the left eye.
At about the time the white moon disappeared I heard 4 groups of coyotes sing out within a 1m interval. First the "senior" group to the SW, the groups to the NW and SE ... then finally a fourth group to the NE. As usual, I would estimate all distances at roughly 600yds. I scanned and scanned but saw no coyotes. But where they literally "baying" at the moon? I know not.
I had cut all the weeds near the wood lines and moved half the bales, so the pastures are getting fairly empty.
Then tried to scan with the Zeus holding it on the trigger stick. I did several 360s, but while I can see lots of detail, it takes two passes to cover all the terrain due to the elevations and the 3x magnification. The q-14 is much faster for a full 360 scan. Drank some water and then tested the FOXPRO on low volumne. I tried distressed rabbit and distressed coyote pup. The coyote pup one is uncanny it sounds so real and it even sounds like the critter is moving around. I used low volume as I was not actually trying to call them in. I tried 2m of D.R. and then did about 10m of 360s and then tried 2m of D.C.P. and another 10m of 360s, no critters spotted. I have minimum 150yds between this position and any concealed approach, then some deadspace for about 100yds in the SW direction, then open pasture for another 300yds. So this is decent spot to be able to see anything moving within 600yds though there are dead spaces for treelines and hills.
Changed batteries in q-14, it chews through them quickly.
I heard a "kill dance" from the two coyotes from the SW, nothing visible, they must have been staying in the wooded area over there. A coyote group to the NW responded.
Tried sitting position with the 556(18) and trigger stick, but at maximum spread the trigger stick was too low and could not get the legs not to slip at proper height. I could use 13-27 inch harris bipod instead to acheive sitting position, but problem with sitting position is lack of ability to pan left or right ... since the body has to move. I can do 360s sitting with the q-14, but not with the Zeus.
The moon did not return to "white" while I was out, though this morning at 5am it was big and white in the Western sky.
When canteen was running low and q-14 second set of batteries was running low I did RTB.

Results/Summary: Well I think this was too much gear. I had tested the L&S spotter scope with a 14 and it works, so I had taken that to field test it, but from the perspective of carrying that heavy pack tonight I would say the weight is definitely not worth it. I would rather carry more food, water, foot powder and bedroll/blanket/mat in case I have to be on wet ground.
Nothing else felt heavy, just the pack! I was able to access the FOXPRO on the lanyard around my neck and I was able to drink from the canteen with everything strapped on, so sequence and placement of pouches and gear seemed functional (it has not always worked out that way). But this is a maximal load for me at this time in terms of weight, for an all night (12 hour) dismounted hunting kit.
I still do not like the "feel" of the shuttered eyepiece on the Zeus and I may give up on that and switch back to the regular eyepeice. I might hook up the remote switch for the Zeus to make turning it on and off easier and less stressful for the pull and turn switch, which seemed to be a weak spot for the apollo.
The red light display of the FOXPRO makes reading the display quite possible at night.
I need to rig up a lanyard for the q-14. I got some "red" batteries for the q-14 and need to get them going as well. I could see changing the batteries every 30-45m when hunting, to make sure your batts don't die when you need them to keep working. So having the red batteries instead of the q-14 should maybe give me 75-90m of battery life ... then maybe change hourly, but that is a lot of battery changes!

 

[Louis Richards]

Don't ever think I have slept for two days straight but I sure did...

When you said one tube vs two, where you saying that was the difference between the NXY and PVS? Or the 7 and the 14? The 7 and the 14 I knew but confused about NXY and PVS

 

[wigwamitus]

I thought you were rolling in the Utah back country!

==
As to difference between NXY and PVS ... that would be housing ... and to include lenses ... there should be no difference in the tubes ...

==
Many larger NV/thermal houses have both "mil spec" versions and "home grown" versions ... which are produced in order to try to reduce the price. **** does the same ... I'd have to guess because I am not one of the houses ... but if they design their own housing ... prototype with 3D printer ... and then outsource the machining of aluminum parts ... and make enough ... they might be able to make a dent in the price ...

==

When I was saying one tube versus two tubes ... I was talking about "monoculars" with one tube (whether having 1 eyepeice or 2 eyepeices) versus solutions with which have two objectives, two tubes and two eyepieces ...