Practicing with Night Vision

[wigwamitus]

I think the 300, 1000 and 2000 all have "blinky" modes ... but I don't use them ... as I said, these days I just use white lights for working at night ... I do carry them for emergencies ... the 3 lumen RGBW lights I use all the time and I carry at least two of those, one on the helmet and one in a pocket.

I trained my brain to not be bothered by coyotes doing their thing and they don't seem to be bothered by me doing my thing ... so as long as they don't bother me, I won't bother them. They have more energy to track down the vermin than I do

I've been working in CA since 1980 but living in Kansas about half the time. My work network is in the Bay Area, my wife did her residency in Kansas so her work network is here. We move back and forth every few years ... but not any more. I'm staying put this time.

In my next life maybe I would buy in NE WY or SE MT ... last time I checked there was pasture land for $300 an acre .. that was about 2 years ago. But we've invested in this place and this is it.

We picked the type of area first, then the specific area, after that finding the land was easy, because there are only a few types of land around here and within those types there isn't much difference. We wanted a mixture of pasture, hills, cricks and woods and we got it. When we found the place my wife asked if we could find a place with a newer house. The house was 19 years old. I told her that was one of the newest ... the average age of houses in this county is 75 years. She said I was crazy, she asked her boss at work if it was crazy, her boss said "Where is the land?" Michelle showed her on google, the boss lady pointed 2 miles to the West and said "There's our land!" ... we got the land.
There were other attributes we wanted. This county had 12,000 people in 1900 ... in 2012 it had 5,900 it is a "go away from" county and we wanted that. And we wanted water and we got that. The week before we broke ground on one of the new structures, we watched Mr. Blandings Dream House ... old movie ... a NYC couple build a house in the country ... they tear it down and build a new one ... when they break ground, they hit water. Eventually they develop the spring, finish the house and live happily ever after, I think, I don't remember the ending! So, we're digging the foundation and they hit a spring. We know what to do! Develop it!! So we did and now about 2/3rds of our water all year comes from that spring. The other third comes from the pre-existing well. We got our second water source! Sometimes you get lucky.

==
Went out tonight and worked on zeroing the 5.56(14.5) with the q-14 weapon mounted. I had to crank up and left a lot, which moves the reticle down and right, of course. I'm in upside down orientation because I like the buttons on the right side and because that keeps the buttons out of the way of the 14 on my left eye when I'm holding side by side ... still have no way to mount on helmet side by side with 14. But if I did, it would be upside down, so I'm getting used to running it upside down so I ran it that way on the 5.56. It works just the same. Once I hit the water bottle, it didn't last long and I only brought one ... so I had zeroed at 30yds and then was at 50yds ... I think I'm still high, so need to continue tomorrow. 640 is probably overkill for a spotter, but it enables me to see rabbits and coon like critters at 200-300yds ... the rabbits look like dots ... and the coons look sort of like snakes in the grass they are so low down I only see their tops at that distance ... I could see them with the apollo also, but it was 42mm ... the q-14 is 19mm ... want to test "tracking" with this "scope" ...
Some of the choices on the q-14 seem strange ... the reticle color cannot be changed like the apollo or Zeus. You get black. Which isn't always perfect. I hope it saved some weight leaving the red color out ... And there is no "red hot" pallet ... I would trade some of the psychedelic ones for the "red hot" ... I need it on the spotter, not the Zeus ! Now over on the Zeus I'd like a reticle with a few hash marks ... I don't care what they are ... I can calibrate them myself ... just give me a few lines! Mostly on windage, I can crank for elevation maybe (if time).
It was 49F when I left the house ... It is cooler these days!
The moon was up (2100-2300) but was obscured by heavy cloud, yet still enough light burned through that I could take off the duals (I wore duals for the first time tonight in months - worked fine - but I need a bit more counter weight on this helmet, I have more on the other one) while shooting. You have to crank down pretty good on the battery cap or the recoil will shut off the unit.
Other than that everything worked fine.

 

[wigwamitus]

Still unable to properly mount q-14 on helmet beside pvs-14. There are three issues:

01 - q-14 too far to the rear relative to pvs-14
02 - q-14 too low relative to pvs-14
03 - q-14 dove tail interface will not lock in to my IC D-14 (Mod Armory) dual bridge

==
Here is pic of issue 01 ...

==
Here is pic of issue 02 ...

==
Here is pic of IC D-14 bridge

==
Here is Armasight pic of q-14 in a dual mount ...

==

I think issue 01 can be mitigated. The dove tail interface has can be taken apart in the area that connects directly to the q-14 ... 2 screws removed then a plate moved a bit and then screwed back on using different holes. This might be for the purpose of allowing swapping between left side and right side. I am trying to mount right side. So I believe issue 01 can be mitigated by me.

Issue 02 though is probably a show stopper. The interface would have to be rebuilt.

Issue 03 can be mitigated with a heavy rubber band.

So only one show stopper! But one show stopper is still a show stopper. Worst case, I will have to sell the q-14 and get something like a pas-29 or ir-patrol to replace it. My goal was to have helmeted mounted thermal beside regular pvs-14. I can hold the q-14 up there and get it to work the way I want. There is a perfect spot for it ... just no hardware to hold it there ...

I called Armasight a couple of times ... first they said q-14 dove tail interface was built to work with Wilson mount not IC D-14 mount. That makes sense. Then my question was is there any hardware that will allow me to mount q-14 beside pvs-14 (which happens to be an Armasight pvs-14) side by side. They huddled on that question and came back and said they would need some longer huddles on that question but that they believed it could be done because they had seen it done! Do I need a Wilson mount?
So what about the Armasight pic of the side by side mounting? Well that is not a pvs-14 ... that is nyx-14 and it doesn't have a screw interface connector like the pvs-14, it has another sort of dovetail interface connector like the q-14 does. So would I have to trade one of my armasight pvs-14s for an nyx-14 !? I hope not as the nyx-14 is has another set of accessories and mount components versus the pvs-14 so that would create a new set of issues. Right now my pvs-14 are interchangeable ... I would loose that. But the devil is in the details and life is full of trade-offs! Actually If I go with the Wilson mount, I would have to get both NXY-14 to replace both PVS-14 ... then I'd have to sell the IC D-14 bridge and any screw on accessories I have would need to be replaced with dove tail attach accessories ... I would move away from the standard pvs-14 ...

Funny thing is I did significant due dilligence on pas-29 and ir-patrol to make sure they would work on my mount. I talked to the guy who designed that mount and he happened to have both pas-29 and ir-patrol and had used both side by side with pvs-14 on his mount (same as mine) and he said the pas-29 worked fine and the ir-patrol "almost worked" but that it worked well enough (length issue ... rear ends not a perfect distances from eyeball ... but it works well enough). I did NOT do such due diligence on the q-14 side making a huge invalid assumption that it would work - shame on me!

 

[wigwamitus]

Aerial dog(bird) Fight!!

I was out a bit ago and heard a bunch of crows sqwaking - not too unusual but they were roughly overhead, so I looked up. A hawk was barreling out of the sky sort of towards me with 2 crows in pursuit ... five other crows "in formation" were headed to the NNE. I continued to watch.
The Hawk pulled out of its dive and got on the six of one of the pair that had been pursuing the Hawk, the wingcrow came in towards the flank of the hawk, the hawk sheared away and got on the six of the wingcrow ... and other wingcrow rolled in on the six on the hawk and it had to shear way again ... this dog(bird)fight continued for several mins moving towards the SSW ... eventually the crow team broke off and zoomed at high speed to catch up with their formation.
My guess is the hawk decided to pick off tail end charlie but the crows spotted the hawk in time and engaged.
I'd never seen an aerial dog(bird) fight like that before, using tactics similar to those human pilots use - are they copying us or are we copying them !!??


I would not have expected the crows to be aggressive towards the hawk, but there did not seem to be any fear on either side. These red-tailed hawks are pretty large, but so are the crows around here ... size wise they looked about the same ... the hawks are very aggressive around here right now ... I spotted one on the ground yesterday 15yds from the house seeming to be stalking the gineas ... I made noise and it flew off .. later after seeing 9 turkey's come out of the woods near that spot I decided the hawk was stalking the turkey's ... but on the ground? Hadn't seen that before either!

 

[Ratdog68]

About a month ago, after hearing some commotion while outside... looked up to see a pair of seagulls diving/chasing a young eagle above my house. Dumpster-chickens on the attack against an eagle? After about 5 mins. the gulls broke off and they headed north, the eagle went south.

 

[RattlesnakeDan]

I shot a pheasant while in Montana one winter. It was still slightly partly alive and a Red Tailed came in and jumped on it right in front of me. I came towards the hawk telling him he wasn't taking my pheasant and he drug it backwards inch by inch into the brush a bit. I said ok, you can have him this time and went on my way. I was just a couple feet away and that hawk was very aggressive w/o any real fear of me it seemed.

 

[rob072770]

Great story Dan.

 

[Louis Richards]

What is your ultimate goal here? Hunting? Tactical? Or combination of both? I mean when you go out at night with all of this gear on, what's really going through your mind? An attack by unFriendly's or snagging a critter?

 

[wigwamitus]

I think my goals include two goal sets

(A) Ability to see, move and shoot (and hit what I'm aiming at) night or day, with high reliability out to 600yds (as far as I can normally shoot) and farther out with lower reliability (have to take 3-6 hours trips to other ranches in Kansas to shoot out to 1400yds - 2000yds respectively).

(B) And the "hunting" goal set:

01 - Observation
02 - Stealth
03 - Marksmanship
04 - Processing

These two goal sets overlap on the, 01, 02, 03 aspects, at least at a high level. But I do need more work on the 04 aspect.

==
When I go out with all the gear on, I am mostly testing my ability to carry the weight for x amount of time and the appropriateness of what I am carrying and the appropriateness of the positioning/location of each piece of gear. Can I get to it if I need it? Are the high priority items easier to get to than the low priority items?

So I am not thinking about being attacked or snagging a critter, I am thinking about testing/practicing with the gear.

 

[Louis Richards]

Military snipers are really proud of themselves for shots at 500 yards. Can you really nail something at 600? That's above and well beyond the normal ability of most people.

So I decided to go on the cheap. I have a Yukon 2x gen one mono. Very impressed with it. Actually for walking around inside my house I have absolutely no complaints with it other than it is 2 x. It was the first toy I bought. Clear and vivid picture out to 10 yards or so.

Seeing as how I have my 6X digital for long views, 3X thermal for everything in between, the only really thing I truly lacked was walking around the woods and/or my famous scenario of the inside of a house or building at night. In short, very close and immediate distances. Since I was so impressed with the Yukon gen one, I ask myself, why am I thinking top of the line.

All I am really trying to secure is probably up to 50 feet at the absolute most. In most cases, inside of a house or walking through the woods, 20 feet and under is more than sufficient. Since I like gen one quality for that distance, it just makes no sense for me to get anything expensive at this point.

So I bought two different ones at Amazon just now. Arrive tomorrow. I got another Yukon identical to my 2x in 1x with headset. I already know it probably will be more than sufficient. In addition, I got an Armasight 1x, exact same price with headsets also. The reviews on the armsight was a much more comfortable headset. I will compare the two, keep the one I like and send the other back. That's what I love about Amazon. Mission completed

 

[Louis Richards]

The bracket that mounts the camera to the headset on the armasite looks much more standard and close to what you have wig. That may be a reason to go with it. Plus it's a gen 1 plus, if there is such a thing and that's not just hype. I have yet to own any headgear so I don't really know how it all mounts. But judging by the pictures I'm looking at that you posted it looks pretty close.

 

[wigwamitus]

... Military snipers are really proud of themselves for shots at 500 yards.

The ex-military snipers I've talked to seem to think 500yds is "pretty easy" under target shooting conditions, day or night ... if you have the right gear and if you stay in practice. Under hunting conditions I talked to people who've shot coyotes, elk and antelope at 500-600yds. That is challenging but apparently do-able.

Per the Army sniper training manuals I have, snipers were first trained to hit with M-24 7.62 bolt gun, out to 600yds, then advanced snipers out to 800yds. I'm sure this has changed with the introduction of the M2010 .300WM bolt gun, as the M-24 distances seemed correlated to the points before and after the bullet (175gr SMK) enters the transonic zone. For the M2010 .300WM this might push the envelop out to 800yds for pre transonic and 1000yds for immediately post transonic, but before effects are significant.

Can you really nail something at 600? That's above and well beyond the normal ability of most people. ...

Most people don't shoot!!

My results are posted in this thread ... and based on the results I've seen I'd say yes, under many conditions ... nothing can ensure a hit under all conditions ... for example standing with tripod I'm under usually 2 MOA, whereas prone, I'm usually under 1 MOA. But wind, target movement, dynamic nature of situation and water/snow/ice in the air can change the equation considerably.

If I could practice out to 1,000yds regularly I would have more confidence at that distance ... but at night, with COLR in front of L&S 6.5-20x TMR FFP, we could not see targets in moon light condition at 1,000yds. We could see targets at 900yds and below ... so ability to see target at longer distances is just one of many limiting factors. The ammo, the rifle, the shooter, the wind, the precipitation, dynamic nature of situation, target movement all come in to play as well.

But practically speaking, I think it would be rare to take a shot at night at over 600yds. I know people that shoot Coyotes in the 500-600yds area day and night and that's about the normal limit I've heard of. In open ground, sometimes the coyotes won't come in closer, so you either take the shot or pass. So, we only shoot farther than 600yds at night for the sake of saying we did and we are shooting at targets that we mark with strobes and beacons if we have to.
As to day shooting, well again practically speaking 800yds is as far as I would shoot under almost any conditions. I think my .338LM can do .5 MOA at that distance if I do my part (head shots). The 7.62 is 1.0 MOA at 600yds, but would likely be 2.0 MOA best case at 800yds. The 16 inch barrel and the 168 grain ammo I shoot being among the limiting factors. Actually .338LM is overkill for 800yds and that's why I will probably sell the .338M and switch to .300WM ... I think .300WM can do anything I would ever do day or night above 600yds.

==
I bought a yukon 3 years ago ... I think I've taken it outside 4 times ... I think they are all described earlier in the thread. One of those times I also took day binoculars which are barska "atlantic" 12x50mm ... in was a moon light night with moon 50% ... at 300yds with the yukon's I could see the berm the target was on. With the barska I could see the berm AND the target on the berm. In other words I could see well enough to shoot with the day optic but not with the night optic. So sad to say the day binos beat the "nigh vision" gear in those conditions. Other times I compared the yukons to MKIEB for walking about in the pasture ... and it was close, but the MKIEB won every time (note I wasn't using ir-illuminator as I try to avoid). The one thing the yukons can do is see someone else using non-passive IR light sources, like an IR laser or an IR illuminator ... so if that's all bad guys have, they still have something useful.

Maybe the new yukons are much better!

==

I have ir-illuminators on my helmets. I keep both of them set on the minimum intensity and at maximum "focus" ... i.e. smallest beam size. By doing this they don't "flood" the landscape with IR light when I turn them on. They produce a beam about 2 feet wide for every 10yds of distance ... and that beam is good for 150yds, the farthest out I use them. I have a pair of T-20s that are like giant ir flashlights and I take them out, but haven't gotten them to do anything useful yet.

 

[Louis Richards]

I disagree with you wig. Wasn't but a couple days ago I was watching modern marvels, and they were showing military snipers and 500 yards was their "to go to goal"

Yes they went father, but 500 was pretty much the end all for them as far as what they were trying to achieve,on an everyday, regular basis. Which is that on accuracy, i.e., splitting a man's eyeglasses, was at 500 yards. Everything was always discussed in terms of 500 yards. Yes I know I've heard of shots much farther, and for snipers, the 1000 yard shot is really the try for end all, but for the average every day Hunter, I just don't believe they're taking 600 yard shots.

Now I am in the deep south, and there's not a lot of open prairie land or vast open spaces of any kind, like there is inTexas, it's all wooded. May just be you Texas guys are a better class of shooter, shooting over the prairie at hogs. I cannot say, but in the south? Well everyone is using a shotgun for starters for deer, and if not, 200 yard shot is considered a "fantastic" shot.

So try as you may to downplay it, anyone who can takes an accurate 600 yard shot, is military sniper caliber. End of story. At those distances, in every single military sniper exercise I have seen, there is a spotter, that is his exact role, 2 in left, one in down, wind 6mp S.E.. 600 yard shot are WELL into being far enough that the wind greatly affects the accuracy. And the larger the bullet, the greater the wind impact. Luckily 556 is a small enough bullet that it doesn't have a great effect on it.

Not too many people can stroll out to the field, and knock down a 600 yard shot. Not at 500 or 400 either. The every day shooter, is good to around 300 yards. After that it tends to get tricky.

Based upon what I'm reading, as several others have also talked about these distances, Texas is earning its reputation Think I'll get out and stretch my legs a little bit and walk around some of the other topics. I don't think I have left this or the thermal side-by-side thread yet. Time to expand my horizons and see what else is out there in the magical world of lone star boars.

 

[Louis Richards]

"So I am not thinking about being attacked or snagging a critter, I am thinking about testing/practicing with the gear."

No, I understand when you're out there you're practicing for that very moment, but ultimately, what in your mind are you practicing and testing for?

 

[wigwamitus]

L.R. (a.k.a. James) I am not in Texas, I am in Kansas !

==
2015-10-02
2130-2330
40F
05 MPH NE

Goals: Edge the SE Pasture.

Environment: Cool, with a bit of a breeze, no moon (rises later), stars visible.

Equipment: Tractor, shredder, Q-14 on Qps Core, balaklava, 2 layers on top of tee shirt.

Activity: I wouldn't normally do this activity at night, but I have to go out of town to CA on business next week and there is still a lot to do right after the harvest. I finished moving all the bales today, but I need to cut back some areas that didn't get hayed and I need to spray some other areas for weeds before those weeds go dormant. As soon as it was officially fall, the temp changed dramatically this year. Two weeks ago I was tractoring in tee shirt and 80F ... now I'm in winter garb at 40F. If I was acclimated, I wouldn't wear so much. What I was wearing tonight I wear down to 10F once acclimated, but I am NOT acclimated yet. The most sensitive (for me) physical element which is not acclimated is respiratory, hence the balaklava. And I just wanted to see what the q-14 could do on the helmet. I can mount it solo on a helmet using USGI mount, just not in a dual mount as I want to do.
So when I tractor at night (rare but I do it occasionally) I turn on the headlights and raise up the loader. That gives me about 40yds at about 120 degrees to my front. It is enough for most situations, especially on familiar ground.
==
Rolling out, the q-14 was very useful as I could see 150+ yards ahead of me instead of the 40yds I could see with MKIEB and headlights. As a bonus I could scan back and forth, left to right to see what I could see. I ran on Sepia, with medium-low brightness. Not enough to get headaches ... enough to see larger critters out to 800yds.
The stack on the right side of the tractor was a thermal barrier, when I scanned past the stack the q-14
"bloomed out" and had to recover on the other side ... it could do so ... but the "bloom out" was distracting.
Once I started cutting, the q-14 wasn't helping much. I need to see the edges of what I'm cutting right in front of the tractor and the tractor was too hot for the 14 to see the ground through the gaps in the front wheels, engine and loader arms. The MKIEB could see the cut line just fine. But I could look up and see the tree line out ahead of me with the 14 and I couldn't see it with the MKIEB until I got really close. So the q-14 did help me know where I was better, it just didn't help me cut.
The sole critter I saw was probably at deer at 200yds to the East on hill 1309 ... I could only see the top half of the deer, so I didn't recognize it at first. It was "body down" behind the ridge line. But the posture, head down, was the main clue.
After edging around the pond, I redistributed some water and had to change the q-14 battery (about 1 hour since leaving house) I also zipped up the wet suit top (outer layer) as I was getting cold. I also cover mouth and nose with Balaklava. The Q-14 never dogged up - I was surprised. I then edged around a bunch of 1z 2z trees on top of hill 1309 ... and finally edged around a steep rocky area. We did not cut these areas with the swather because it is not efficient to make tight turns near trees, but I edge them to reduce the strength of undesired vegetation in these areas.
Heading back again the q-14 was very useful, it helped me aim at the main trail I needed to get on to go over signal hill and then across turtle creek and back home. Being able to see the trail way out of head of me was great compared with the 40yds I could see with the white lights.

Results Summary: Well tonight gave me a head start on what I need to do tomorrow and the q-14 experiment was the first time I'd worn q-14 on helmet, it was more useful than I expected.

 

[wigwamitus]

... No, I understand when you're out there you're practicing for that very moment, but ultimately, what in your mind are you practicing and testing for?

As I thought I said, one hunting partner told me we might be out from 8pm to 8am on foot, so that was the specific scenario I was practicing for. That being said, I believe the mantra "we fight like we train" ... or "we hunt like we practice" ... so the more time we spend out at night with the gear, the more prepared we are for anything. I just like being out at night - it is relaxing for me. If there were no firearms on earth, I'd still like to go out at night. I'd carry rocks and/or sticks if they existed .

 

[Louis Richards]

That's what I wanted to know. You are doing it for the enjoyment of doing it. I would be different. I would be doing it for the joy of doing it in the interim, but ultimately, I would be doing it for myself for a **** hits the fan situation.

I can't honestly tell you that if there was peace on earth and goodwill towards man, that I would have still bought a thermal vision weapons scope. It sounds like you would have.

 

[Louis Richards]

Well there is no doubt about it, between the two, Armasight is the class act. Came much better presented. The headgear is top notch with padding all away around it. Plus it comes with a generous size carry bag that mounts to your belt to put everything in. Not to mention, the unit appears to be extremely well-made, aluminum body, and the look through the viewfinder is twice as clear as the Yukon. No fuzzy at all. In fact, so clear, I could only imagine what gen 2 and gen 3would be like.

Only gripe is the battery compartment should have been an oring when you screwed shut to prevent moisture from get it in and it does not. Also the IR illuminator is all but a joke compared to the Yukon. Barely noticeable as with the Yukon is extremely noticeable with it on. So I guess I'm in the market for an IR flashlight. Which means I might as well get a combo.

Does anyone know if these new black IR that I hear about not visible to the human eye is picked up by NV. I've only seen so far in conjunction with camera equipment.

Think I made the right decision going on the cheap and the one x is what I have been missing forever....which still makes me wish they had offered it in thermal

The James... He asked me if Louis Richards was my real name and I said no that my REAL name was Bond, James Bond.

Update: as much as I hate to admit it, and I really do. In my night time test inside the house, the Yukon outdid the Amasight It is not the IR, as I used it for the Armasight. It's just the general picture. However, the Yukon IR is also twice as bright anyway. The Yukon is just much brighter with the light or without it. Generally speaking it is almost twice as bright. In fact, using the illuminator from both units still produced a picture half as bright than the Yukon did with only it's own IR. The clarity is just about the same so I take back what I said earlier. Evidently when looking at it through the day the clarity was much better. But when nighttime use came along, they are about identical. But because the tube is producing a much brighter picture with the Yukon things can be seen much easier.

Really had my hopes set so that I would have two matching units

2nd Update: Thinking of upgrading AGAIN now, Started looking at a comparison of all brands. Shockingly, I think the darker image is just an Armasight thing in general. Even in Gen 2 and 3 comparisons to other night vision devices, Armasight just has a darker picture all around. Not sure if that's a good thing, but to me it's a bad thing. Of course I want as bright a picture as possible. But in the comparisons, the picture was always 2-3 shades darker than its competitors. Clarity was the same however.

This whole seeing at night thing has gotten awfully complicated, involved, and out of hand. I almost wish I had never thought about it. Wish I just stuck to my tach LED flashlights for everything... Wasnt much complexity there. The higher the number of lumens, the brighter the flashlight

 

[BigRedDog]

James, the 940 nm light should be picked up by your nv.

The cost may be a bit more. For your applications the regular 850 or lower lights will be just fine, and cheaper

 

[Louis Richards]

Thanks. I was just thinking if the reason I got it was for stealth creeping up on people, why not? Not sure how visible the 850 is in flashlight form?

 

[Louis Richards]

Oh MY. It appears I have opened up a can of hornet's on the subject. I thought it was simple. Looks like it's just as as complicated trying to pick out my NV scope...

There are groups that do nothing but get together and discuss wavelength, colors, wattages, filters... Can't ANYTHING be simple with NV!

Went with this. Reviews fantastic! Adjustable from flood to spot. They had a new model too, much more powerful, but this seems fine as is. I like the fact it's small too!