Just pulled the trigger on an IR Patrol

[JPK]

Hunting is hunting. Hunting men is more dangerous than hunting anything else, but it is hunting - that comes from my bud who has been in combat - which I have not.

That predator hunting bud has spent a lot of time looking trough NV and thermal scopes hunting men, as a Scout Sniper. He comments on the similarity.

And what Brian was saying in so many words is that you need to get out there and run your gear through trials. Hunting would surely be the best available trial, but you can find other ways.

JPK

 

[Wildfowler]

Why don't you just rent one from UNV and see if it fits the bill for you?

 

[wigwamitus]

The only cases, I've encountered where thermal cannot see a critter and i2 or unaided optics can, is the "through the glass" type scenario.

BUT, there are a number of edge cases where thermal can see a critter but not see the terrain, so the variance in distance estimates can cause one to miss if taking a shot. Such cases involve mist or rain, or snow, when either there is too much water (frozen or otherwise) in the air to see the terrain and/or the temperature of the terrain has been "leveled" to the point where you just see a "sea of grey". Within this sea of grey, a critter might emerge, but without terrain reference points, an accurate distance estimate will be difficult.

There are also many cases of "false positives". On my land rocks can be hot for many hours after sunset and can take of the shapes of critters. But, they don't move. So, eventually you can figure out the rocks are not alive. I've now memorized many of the large rocks I can see on my land, so even though I occasionally do a "double take" ... my "database" can remember ... oh yeah ... that is that rock.

The quest for the one optic that does everything, is not one I would embark on. My preference is having several of each flavor, so I can match the tools to the task and conditions. A couple of weeks ago, when the snow was on the ground here ... the"luminosity" of the snow was unbelievable. The i2 could see extremely well. Anything moving in the open would be seen clearly for a long, long way.
Once I saw a deer at 150yds with the Q-14 and thought it was three rats at 30yds. The deer was barely visible through the weeds on the side of a large dirt mound on our property, where many rats live. I thought it was unusual to see three rats so close together not moving. I approached and the deer moved ... and for a split second I thought the three rats were moving, but then I could see the deer.
Point is sometimes i2 can see better than thermal.

My current setup has one PVS-14 on left eye and one Odin on the right eye.

And these days I have the Apex 2x 50mm 384(50) on the 5.56(14.5)

So, I can spot critters with the Odin, navigate across creeks and through woods with the PVS-14 and engage critters with the Apex 2x on the rifle. But it does take three devices.

If my priority is to spot critters (including threats) ... then one thermal spotter is the minimum requirement.

If my priority is to move stealthily through tricky terrain, then one PVS-14 is the minimum requirement.

If my priority is to engage critters ... then one thermal on the rifle is the minimum requirement.

If I want to do 2-3 of those things then I want 2-3 of those gadgets.

I would also use i2 (CO-LR) to engage critters from greater distances if needed ... or day scopes to engage critters during the day. I have 4 active rifles right now and 2 are setup for night and 2 for day.

==
I do believe I have learned the most from going out with the gadgets and experiencing how they work in different conditions ... observing different scenes, different critters etc. I certainly learn from posting and reading, but I think I learn much more from doing. That's what some folks here are trying to say. Get out there and use the stuff and you will be able to answer many of your own questions better than we can by typing here for you.

 

[JPK]

Wildfowler,

Louis already has a Patrol!

Duck season ended here Saturday. I had a good to very good season, as they go. Goose ends here Thursday, but I won't get out again. Had a pretty good goose season too, with success all but two days I got out. Didn't get out that much for geese, but when I did they were flying well. [Even the days we skunked they were flying, unfortunately they were piling in 500yds and a half mile away respectively, on those two days. Nothing on earth more frustrating!]


JPK

 

[JPK]

The only cases, I've encountered where thermal cannot see a critter and i2 or unaided optics can, is the "through the glass" type scenario.

...
... Point is sometimes i2 can see better than thermal.
...

Great point about the glass by Wigwamitus.

Based on Wigwamitus' comment I should have tried my night vision set up when we had snow cover. Perhaps that would have been the first time where I found NV to outperform thermal for spotting or ID'ing living creatures.

JPK

 

[Wildfowler]

Wildfowler,

Louis already has a Patrol!

Duck season ended here Saturday. I had a good to very good season, as they go. Goose ends here Thursday, but I won't get out again. Had a pretty good goose season too, with success all but two days I got out. Didn't get out that much for geese, but when I did they were flying well. [Even the days we skunked they were flying, unfortunately they were piling in 500yds and a half mile away respectively, on those two days. Nothing on earth more frustrating!]


JPK

Sorry but I lost track with all of the discussion.

This may have been my best duck season I've ever had. Hunted 49 out of 60 days and only missed getting limits for the whole group on seven hunts. Actually the season this year was not the highest duck kill but it was the most reliably successful season I've ever had.

I watched a goose magician work in two specs in front of my blind which is in 25-year-old hardwood plantation during the last week. That's not exactly your typical Specklebelly habitat.

 

[Louis Richards]

Truth of the matter is simply this. If I could I would. Not like I have 100 acres available to me, and I choose to sit in my bedroom because I'm afraid to go out and practice. I would love nothing more, then to be out somewhere tonight shooting my butt off.

No one can dispute that probably 8 hours of field use is equal to 100 hours of research. Unfortunately, being a city dweller who is pretty much stuck in the city at all times (but have been looking to buy large acreage for about six months now) I'm stuck with learning all that I can via book knowledge and opinions from others who ARE using it in the field.

Sucks. But is what it is. I understood what Brian was trying to say, in condensed form.. LOL

The sad part is not being a hunter, then even field use at best is exploratory. And for me to experience real field use, well, it may be a day late and a dollar short..

As Wigwam told me a long time ago, this forum has some of the most experienced people around when it comes to night vision. It's was Brian's and others side by side comparison that led me here in the first place. Just excellent and I was a newbie... Not sure I'm still not when it comes to actual usage of the equipment I own. But at least I am far more educated about the equipment I own.

I also knew not being a hunter, that I was better off on a tactical forum and so there is a trade-off being on a hunting forum when one does not hunt for the information gained by the experts on night vision.

Also as I mentioned in my much earlier posts, at least I think I did, this forum just seems to be "nicer" all the way around and the people here genuinely seem to want to help others more so than ones I am a member of.

I shouldn't really say that. All of them have nice people who are looking to help, but they also seem to have been infiltrated by the keyboard, chest pounding monkey macho men, who are really quick to threaten people from hundreds of miles away from behind the safety of their monitor.

So in order to get one good answer, you have to weed through and listen to six wack jobs who I would never want to meet in real life and are the exact ones I'm preparing to defend against if anything happens.

This forum some kind away, and I am 55 and have been a member on some for 10+ years, has mysteriously as far as I can see, voided itself from any such individuals. I don't know if it's because this forum is the "world's best kept secret", or has yet to attract those type people because it is a more serious hunting only, or the moderators do a good job of filtering out the whackos.

Even if a combination of all three, all I can say, is all my questions have always been answered by some very knowledgeable people and I have gained more insight on this forum for the short time I have been here, than the years I have been on others, if simply for the fact I couldn't take all the butt wipes!

Of course, I have been banned by my share of them also. I'm not one to zip my lips when rudeness or sarcasm starts, and in fact, sometimes go a little overboard, so overboard, I am politely asked to leave...

Trust me when I tell everybody. It's not my choice to be learning about my $20,000 plus investment in night vision by "writing and reading" about it. Stuck in the city, while caring for an ill wife full time leaves little, if any actual field time. And like it or not, the farthest I can take it, is what I do now. Stepping outside my front door at night and surveying my neighborhood for 20 or 30 minutes.

I have three AR's And originally I was going to have one set up for the night and one set up for day. But I think that's unrealistic for my purposes. If I was a hunter, it will be absolutely perfect.

 

[wigwamitus]

Ok James, got it ... makes sense ... here are some other ideas ...

101 - Hunting ...
Well you don't have to actually "hunt" ... here is what I've been doing for the past 3 years almost to the day ...

I consider hunting to consist of 4 different skills, in this priority order:

01 - Observation - We must SEE the item of interest and identify the object of interest and determine if it fits or "Rules of Engagement".

02 - Stealth - We must MOVE to the required observation or firng point in a manner which does not compromis our purpose. Sometimes we do this prior to 01 (as in moving to and setting up first) and sometimes we need to move after observing, to get closer.

03 - Marksmanship - Abiity to aim and pull the trigger and hit what you are aiming at day or night.

04 - Processing - Ability to disposition the object of the "hunt" ... i.e. bring the meat back to base.

So what if you focus on just 01 and maybe some 02 as well? If you look at my practicing thread, you will see a number of videos of deer, geese, etc. in some cases the deer come to within 25 yds of me before I have to whistle at them to get them to back off. I didn't want to shake hands with them. Anyway this type of activity, does not involve 03 and 04, only 01 and 02. So nothing wrong with going out to develop 01 and 02 only in my book. I rate them as the highest priority anyway!

102 - One perfect setup.

I believe if there was one perfect setup, one rifle one optic that did everything, then we would all already be using that and we would not be having this conversation. So you (James) will need to both prioritize and accept some compromises. Personally I don't think you can prepare for all scenarios that might happen, so I prefer to develop capabilities and have flexability. I might not be the best at any thing but I hope to be better than average in a number of things.

The ir-patrol is a small light device ... you might want to consider using it primarily as a spotter. You can also use it as a weapon site or even as a clipon. It might not have olympic shooter accuracy/repeatability, but I submit you don't need that. I'd consider the q-14 to be a short distance sight or clipon (under 200 yds). And 6 inch groups will work against large enough targets at that distance.

I'd also take a day optic and if it was me and I want to go light, I'd probably take the EOTECH, which for me is good out to 400yds with the 3x magnifier in winds up to 10 MPH (at least that's as high as I've tested). So for me a light but flexible load would be 1 x PVS-14, 1 x Odin (functional equivalent of ir-patrol), 1 x 5.56(14.5) with eotech and 3x magnifier and base for mounting odin (or 14) and a skull crusher or two. I've detected horses with the odin out to 800yds and I suspect I could detect horses and cows out much farther under average conditions. And I practice bones only with the EO out to 400yds ... and kneeings at 200yds and standing unsupported at 100yds ... 9 inch steel or Army half silhouettes being the targets. So one rifle, one day optic, one each i2 and thermal NOD. I can hit thumb sized rats at average of 30yds with the Odin standing unspported, why could I not hit a critter that could shoot back at 100yds standing or 200yds kneeing?

I've been "hunting" (not counting rat slaying) 4 times since I was 15 ... so I don't "hunt" much either ... but I've been out 3.5 times per week on average for the past three years ... about 500 times total .. and I've learned a lot about 01 and 02 ... and 03 ... and not so much about 04 ...

Bottom line stop looking for the perfect setup ... look for capabilities ... and practice with all your gear under different conditions as much as possible and your plans and ideas will then be based on your experience and you can't beat that.

 

[Louis Richards]

JPK, why does your eyepiece look different on the Patrol pic? Flat like?

Ok. I will try it as a clip on. Here lies the problem with advice when one cannot create their own. It is the main downfall of only reading and writing about such things.

The gentleman who sold it to me just completely talked me out of even trying it as a clip on. Said yes it can be used as such, but was never really designed to be used as such. Not like a true clipon and that really, IR defense was pushing it by saying it could even be used as one...

And as such, it will not be able to give me anything close to what it gives me being used as my main scope. So don't bother you'll be letdown. Something like that

Since I still have not received the manual, but promises have been put forth I'll have it within a week, I couldn't even try it anyway as I didn't know how to collimate it.

However James friend who does steps 1-3, but not much for 4, did email me step by step on how to (funny but I forgot all about James Wig till you called me that again LMBO!!)

Though I may not be able to zero it, I can at least take a look at it and see whether or not it will make me happy.

This whole damn problem started when I got my damn mod three!!! I was perfectly content until my eyes really opened up and I started to see just what a wonderful world it was at night with mod3 night vision goggles.

Because up until that point, I planned on using the patrol as a spotter and then weapon mount it for "the shot." Seemed to be the best of the best. I have it hanging off my helmet to make it easy and reduce the weight of holding my weapon up all the time to spot the enemy, quickly attach it to my weapon and take the shot. What more could someone asked for?

But then after reading on this forum, I decided that night vision would be a very needed added item, as the patrol was useless for navigating and getting around.

Now since "spotting" was well taken care of with the patrol, then my needs for night vision were only for navigation, i.e., transporting my body and moving and running and driving and everything else, only collimated goggles would do it for me. I sure didn't see the need for another handheld unit, as that did nothing for me and even less than the patrol. I wasn't looking for another spotter. That's why I chose collimated goggles.

It was a wise purchase and I am still as impressed with those as I am the Patrol.

But as in all things in life when you have too many choices, it started to get very confusing to me about exactly how to put all this stuff together! Uggggg.

Wigwam likes having one on each eye, but I also know he's not running through fields like that either.

And so the more I researched, the more it just made sense for me to learn to adapt to use my own equipment that I purchased. That was, to put down optical and move-in to thermal full time.

All of this however, every bit of it, every last inch of the confusing part of it all, was ALL based on the concept, that once I removed my optical scope and thermal scope and put it back on, that I would have to re-zero my weapon each and every time with each and every scope.

If it wasn't for that, then I would really have no issue swapping between my optical and thermal as needed with a quick release.

Enter now JPK . Who is telling me with the right mounting equipment, that indeed CAN be achieved!!! Drives me bonkers. Because if you can, then I think really I would much rather keep the optical on my rifle, my night vision goggles on my face, and my IR patrol handy to be used anyway that I want to use it without having to re-zero.

 

[JPK]

Louis,

With a Bobro or Larue mount for you day optic and the D-Loc for the Patrol you can swap from day scope to thermal and back without loosing zero.

I have a 1.25x4 Swarovski in a Bobro mount and it returns to zero without issue, and so does the UNV D-Loc mount for the Patrol.

If you need the flip through quick guide that comes with the Patrol - and includes the directions for zeroing it as a clip on - I will scan mine and email it to you. PM me your email address if you want me to scan and send it to you.

If I were making the decision I would go with a Bobro or Larue mount for my day scope and the D-Loc for the Patrol and swap back and forth (and I do that.)

The eye cup on my Patrol is a shuttered eye cup, the four rubber finger which comprise the shutter are closed until you push forward on the large rubber "flange." When closed the shutter contains almost all light from the screen. Without a shuttered eye cup too much light spills from the occular and keeping light discipline so I am not flashing light around when hunting takes attention, and occasionally a hand over the occular. The zip tie is just to prevent the loss of the eye cup.

The Patrol is supplied with a PVS 14 eye cup, which works fine for helmet mounted use, though I just rolled mine down. (The Patrol uses a PVS 14 ocular.) The OEM eye cup is fair at best for containing the light.

JPK

 

[Louis Richards]

Just mounted everything to use the patrol as a clip on. But couldn't get a picture. And then it hit me, my Bushnell A.R. 15 scope is a 3 by 12.

I'm not mistaken, you can't use it with 3X minimum, it has to be much less than that correct?

 

[wigwamitus]

On the IRD website it clearly states that for MK2 use as a clipon the day scope must be 1x ... I'm betting that is true for the Patrol as well, but I didn't look as hard at the Patrol documentation.

 

[Louis Richards]

First subject. Just so everybody knows, I purchased a house in the mountains with 28 acres, bordered by tons more of USFS land. Been looking for a while for a private, secluded prepper home to begin with. But more so now, to going outside and shoot at night. Actually, to shoot anywhere at anytime! Could not envision a better set up for target shooting, have two sides of a mountain for a backstop!

Second subject. This just goes to show you how all of this technology begs to be used and not read about. I promise if I had actually used this equipment for even one night of shooting, I would've never forgotten about the 1X.

As I go back to the side-by-side comparison thread, this was talked about in detail, and even I myself brought up the fact that it could not be used with anything over 1X. Yet many months forward, I see myself mounting a 3X scope with my thermal and wondering why it won't work and worse, posting it as a question on a different thread.

I think I'm done with the questions part of my life (everybody try not to applaud too loud) and it's time now to go shoot. And only after reading my own question that I answered myself in another thread, can I finally appreciate Brian saying, "sometimes you just need to shut up and hunt (shoot)"

Third subject. This is officially a question, so the no questions part of my life does not officially start until this post is over.... (thank God for the edit feature) Or I should say no more questions, until I have some field use under my belt.

Still, if it was a 1X scope and the magnification is done through the optical and not the thermal, which means I can magnify my thermal display picture to 3X or more with my optical, why the hell doesn't it work with 3X as the base magnification, if it will work as a magnified view of the same?

 

[wigwamitus]

I don't think I understand the question. There are two "opticals" involved in the scenario. The "thermal optical" which in this case is 1.45x and the "day scope optical" which in this case we think is 3x.

When I tried the ir-hunter in front of a 3-15x scope ... as I "zoomed in" from 3x to 5x ... the pixel image on the thermal moved off center ... the cross hair sunk lower in the sight picture and I think disappeared off the bottom of the sight picture. At least that's what happened when I tried it. What happened when you tried it?

==
But I can't try to answer a question I don't understand, so if you could restate the question hopefully I'll have another chance to understand it!

 

[Brian Shaffer]

When I tried the ir-hunter in front of a 3-15x scope ... as I "zoomed in" from 3x to 5x ... the pixel image on the thermal moved off center ... the cross hair sunk lower in the sight picture and I think disappeared off the bottom of the sight picture. At least that's what happened when I tried it. What happened when you tried it?

Your scopes were not actually aligned on both the X and Y axes. Sounds like you were on the X, but not the Y.

 

[Louis Richards]

What I'm trying to say is my 3x12 scope starts out at 3X. 3X is the maximum optical for the patrol. What I really needed is a 1x3 optical scope. So the scope that I adore so much, is basically useless when used with the patrol as a clip on, as i am already starting out at 3X on the display and I don't want that for my application.

The whole reason I got rid of the Zeus is I wanted a wider field of view and 1x. So combining my scope with the patrol basically gives me back the 3x Zeus again!!!

 

[wigwamitus]

James, yup you can't use that 3-12x behind the patrol. So if you like a rifle with that 3-12x, then call that your day gun and setup another one of your rifles for your day/night gun. The VO 1-6x gen2 is a nice scope for that application. BUT ... IRD says they have a list of "approved" optics to run behind the IR-Hunter, so that should mean the same for the IR-Patrol, so maybe try contacting IRD and ask the question "what optics can I run behind the IR-Patrol as a clip on" before buying the VO 1-6x. My guess is their "approved optics" list are the ones they know of that are true 1x. But they would know for sure, since it is their list!

 

[theblakester]

Also as I mentioned in my much earlier posts, at least I think I did, this forum just seems to be "nicer" all the way around and the people here genuinely seem to want to help others more so than ones I am a member of.

Eveyone on here are very helpful and friendly... As long as you don't show interest in the .300 blackout. Lol

 

[Louis Richards]

How did I get one like for saying everybody on here was nicer, and you got three likes for agreeing with me. If I had only known about the 300 blackout... LOL

 

[Ratdog68]

How did I get one like for saying everybody on here was nicer, and you got three likes for agreeing with me. If I had only known about the 300 blackout... LOL

LOL...

No, no, no... it's a .300 WTF