Practicing with Night Vision

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
... It's nighttime, you're shooting at unFriendly's for absolutely sure. Thermal or NV & laser? ..

Still not specific enough ...

Am I moving ... are they moving ... being chased ... chasing them ... at short range 150yds or less? In that case laser ... it is lighter and I need the pvs-14 on my head anyway to be moving ... so I can move faster and engage faster ...

If I am at 500yds in a hide at night then a good thermal would be great ... especially if I have 1-3 other guys around me to defend the flanks ...

==
re-stated in a dynamic situation a laser might be best ...

in a setup / ambush kind of scenario a thermal might be best ...

==

Another option is NV clipon and/or NV dedicated scope ... for shooting at critters (even those at the top of the food chain) a thermal is generally better ... but targetID is easier with NV and if you can see the target, more magnification and hence greater distances are possible with NV. I've been able to hit out to 1,000yds at night with an NV clipon in front of an FFP scope set at 14x. But I did have to mark the targets with beacons and strobes in order to be able to see them - we were out in the country. But if you can see a target at 1,000 or 1,400 or even a mile ... an NV clipon can support magnifications of up to 20x and hence enable accurate shooting. The thermals we can buy at least, cannot do that. They are limited to maybe 6x or 12x with fuzz ... so under optimal conditions you could fire at a fuzzy blob at 1,200yds ... but if your ROE require targetID ... then not under many circumstances (are they firing at you?)
 

Jhop

LSB Active Member
SUS VENATOR CLUB
From a hunters point of view in an up close pig engagement. The lower the magnification the better, 3x can be too much. However it's probably one of the better compromises out there in thermal/night vision for hunting short to medium range pigs. In a house it's worthless. A one power scope would be much better. You could easily enage anything from point blank range to 100+ meters quickly and effectively. Night vision powers up much more quickly and the batteries last conciderably longer than thermal. Keep in mind any type of active device (LASER) is visible to anyone with night vision too. It might also be visible to the naked eye too. Back to hunting pigs
 

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
The military "Enhanced Night Vision Google" program ... is trying to close the gap between the "helmet mounted/laser" aiming system and the "reticle on the rifle" aiming system. The vision is that the view of the reticle on the rifle will be uploaded to the fusion (thermal and NV) google and allow the operator to aim without "shouldering" the rifle. Thus gain the speed advantage of using the laser ... with the NV and the thermal view to the eye and the accuracy advantage of the reticle on the rifle. At least that is the theory. We will hear about how well it works. Not sure we will be able to buy those for a few weeks :)

Note I would still shoulder the rifle if it was me as I do when aiming with a laser ... but I'm shooting more from the "high ready" ...

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edit: The high ready per FM 3-22.9 C1

lmSfIpMh.jpg


Facing the threat/target, feet apart, knees bent, butt stock in the pocket, eyes looking over the top of the weapon. Then activate the laser, aim, fire, then laser off ... or if multiple targets continue to aim, fire ...
 
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wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
2015-09-22
2200-2330
50F
05 MPH SE

Goals: Night observation drive/walk

Environment: Misty tonight, moon obscured, but light still burning through clouds. Stars not visible.

Equipment: Same as last night.

Activity: Had to work on tractor, so got started late. Drove out to alfalfa patch. Spotted a deer in last night's setup spot, so I stopped at a different spot and setup. With the q-14 I could see 2 deer, one in head down (eating) position and the other in alerted position. I installed the DVR on the q-14 without looking (meaning I was able to feel the cable match up) but whenm I powered up got error msg "install sim card" haha ... I had forgotten to put the sim card back in the device, shame on me!!! So no video today :( I was using Sepia on the q-14.

Lased the deer and they were 136yds away. Took several attempts to get three pulses of the lrf ir-laser bouncing off the deer.

Yipped a few times, but got no response from coyotes.

Noted a few cows in the pasture to the West. Due to high grass between me and them I could only see the top halves of the cows qith the q-14.

Setup the trigger stick and got out the 556(18) with the Zeus. I'm trying the "shutter eyepiece" thingy. I might need a caulous on the area between my nose and right eye. The shutter eyepiece has advantage that it auto closes and hence minimizes light comming out of the back of the scope. But you have to push on it with your face ... smash your face in on it to be able to see through the Zeus and at least for now that isn't a plesant experience. The helmet touches the eyepiece thingy also so that is a little distracting as well. But I will keep practicing. The shutter thingy is probably a good idea to minimize light splash on face. Was toggling between white hot and black hot. The deer and cows showed up best on black hot tonight.

The buggy glass completely fogged up, but not the other optics. The buggy was very wet, the mist was coating the buggy with water. So this wasn't a "fog up" condition, this was a "mist up" condition. I had to lean sideways while driving home to make sure I didn't bump into bales or fences.
 

Louis Richards

LSB Member
Just so confused. One of the problems, even though retired, I have no place to shoot. I'm running ads on craigslist offering $100 to let me go on someone's property and shoot all day. So not being able to actually go out to the field and see what this thing can do limits me tremendously.

Let's also factor in that I have absolutely no experience in tactical other than reading. So I'm trying to ascertain what is best for me, trying to guess what is best for a man like me.

I personally don't see 500 yard shots. I see most encounters as being relatively close up. I'm starting to lean towards follow. Running into encounters inside of the house, NV, from outside of the house, thermal would be the way to go.
 

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
I was given the advice I'm about to give you - I didn't follow it either :D ...

I have absolutely no experience in tactical other than reading. So I'm trying to ascertain what is best for me, trying to guess what is best for a man like me.

I would not engage in that activity. I would do something else. Get something to start you down the road ... maybe you already have ... but don't try to answer a fundamental question about "what is best for me" ... based on zero experience ... your probability of success is very low ... and that's not mainly because you don't know the technology ... it is because you don't have enough information to understand your OWN requirements!

I started off thinking I wanted to do "long range precision" ... both day and night ... I got an ATN PS-22 ... I also had a couple of good cottonwood sticks and my mark I eyeballs. I spent about $10k thinking "I know what I need" ... I was wrong.
Read the first two posts in this thread ... I had a good time bumping around in the night at first :D

==
After getting experience with PVS-14 and Apollo and doing a lot more standing up shooting, I realized a program of strictly LR precision ... was actually NOT going to meet my "needs". I needed to (relearn - my Army time was eons ago) standing up - dynamic - shooting. also! And then my "NEEDS" evolved. As I learned more about what it was like out there at night and as I learned more about the technology ... my basis for DECIDING what my NEEDS were improved ... and the NEEDS themselves evolved.

==
To restate, don't try to make one decision now about what your needs will be for the rest of your life. Do an iterative process. Buy a little, learn a little, buy some more, learn some more ... etc. The one grand event where you buy everything you will ever need, before you have any/much experience ... is not a good event to be involved with. I speak from experience ! :D
 

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
... the lowly 556 55 grains, of course terminal ballistics probably aren't that great. ...

Fragmentation of 5.56 ammo won't happen much past 200yds ... so for hogs ... not a good idea ... but for coyotes ... it will work ... they don't seem to much like having holes punched in them ...
 

Louis Richards

LSB Member
Actually, I think that is sound advice that I am going to follow :) it's excellent advice and makes total sense. Thanks for passing it down.

Now, not to sound condescending, believe it or not, I already thought about that myself and had a conversation with myself about it. My conclusion? I figured I had one way around it and one way only. I could just start out by buying the best of the best in all categories. Now, I know the Zeus 640 3-24 75 I got is not the best of the best, but it's sure the best of the best for a guy like me... I was tempted many times to buy a lesser unit, but it just didn't make sense. If I start off at the top, Id have no regrets later about new and improved versions, or wanting later on to get a nicer unit once I had learned what I was missing with the lesser units.

The only thing better I really could've got was a 100 mm 60 hz. Several thousand dollars more for something probably I wouldn't use. As I said in another post, my heart longs for a 2X with the 75mm or 100mm lens. That was just not offered by Armasite that I could see anywhere, other than then a smaller lens which I was not interested then. I knew I wanted to 75 or 100. The trade-off for 75 versus 42 was not enough for 2x to 3x. And I had also decided I wanted to go with the Zeus. They seem to me to be the best company out there. All things considered.

Even then, I realize some basic limitations. I drove by waffle house the other day and for kicks I pulled out my thermal vision and it really hit home at how it doesn't see through glass. And I thought to myself, these guys could be having a meeting with 50 people in there with guns and cannons and a nuclear bomb and I wouldn't even be able to see it!!! Boy that's a major limitation.

For the PVS 14? No problem at all, I could see everything I wanted to see inside the waffle house. Then I thought of another scenario with thermal vision even scarier. Of course this all refers to a **** hits the fan possibility. I'm walking behind a house, some guy cracks open his window to the bathroom and sticks out a shotgun. I scan the back of the house I don't see a threat. I casually walk by said window and casually get said head blown off at shoulders. Yep, I'm convinced that I need a PVS 14.

Of course, somebody could be hiding behind the bushes of the same house and my PVS 14 didn't see him, I casually walk behind same house and he blows the same head off with the same shotgun. And seeing as how you never know which one you need, I can now understand your dual set up.

One of the sad parts of it all? Both of these devices can be one upped with my Fenix 4000 lumen tactical flashlight. Of course I would probably give my position away :)

So again I say, as long as I stick to using my thermal for a living off the woods scenario and using it for hunting I think it's a choice, because all animals are enemies if you look at it like that. No chance of killing a friendly in other words. But the tactical? I'm starting to lean towards night vision.

With that said, since everyone slapped me in the face for not giving the vendors a shot, hello Armasite vendors? Anybody want to give me a killer deal on a Gen3 night vision device? If I'm not mistaken, there's absolutely no reason to get a weapon mounted version, as long as I have an IR laser mounted on the weapon it would be the exact same thing correct? So vendors, throw in a nice IR laser to go with it.
 
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Louis Richards

LSB Member
Does a larger lens have a larger display in the viewfinder? Curious about that.

Also wondering why the Zeus 1 and 2 x magnifications are the smallest lens, 30 mm? What does mag have to do with lens, thought larger lens just meant the faster the information was received, but ALSO thought it meant a larger view on the display.
 

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
the objective lens is a separate component from the display unit, so there is no implied size relationship between them. The larger lens DOES mean more information, so higher resolution possible on the display. Higher magnification does not require larger lens, but higher magnification looks better with higher resolution. The trade-off on thermals with higher optical magnification is that the FOV is reduced on the downside, but the magnification is increased. The idea is that a higher mag thermal scope is capable of longer distances, but then NOT as good at closer in shooting.

The Zeus 3x 75mm (640-30) seems like a great scope so far. I've gotten .5 moa groups at 500yds on a good night and 1.0 groups on a bad night and that's what I shoot in the day. That was shooting at two handwarmers forming a 3 inch square. And the Zeus is capable of inside 100yds shooting also, so the 3x optical magnification is truly a good compromise as jhop says above.
It is NOT so good for just scanning around, but then that's what I got the q-14 for.
 

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
2015-09-22
1900-2000
60F
10 MPH SE

Goal: Rabbit

Environment: Twilight period, overcast, a bit misty.

Equipment: 5.56(14.5), EOTECH, 3x magnifier, LRF FLC 55gr, sling, CQBL.

lX3bXqYh.jpg

Archive pic but same config as last night.

Rolled around on the 4-wheeler and spotted rabbit SW of caretaker shack. This is the "tomato" eater who lived in the dirt pile to the NW of the shack. He should've run home, but I got between him and his home and he hopped a few feet and remained still and repeated that pattern. Used visible laser. The grass was a bit high, so I could only see top half of rabbit (really a dark smudge). Aimed low (i'm zeroed at 150yds), after 1 shot, rabbit disappeared, but I found him, DRT.

M3igDY5h.jpg


Results: He wiped out the tomatos this year, but he won't be able to do it again. Later measured distance to be 60yds.
 

Delta4-3

LSB Member
Vendor
Actually, I think that is sound advice that I am going to follow :) it's excellent advice and makes total sense. Thanks for passing it down.

Now, not to sound condescending, believe it or not, I already thought about that myself and had a conversation with myself about it. My conclusion? I figured I had one way around it and one way only. I could just start out by buying the best of the best in all categories. Now, I know the Zeus 640 3-24 75 I got is not the best of the best, but it's sure the best of the best for a guy like me... I was tempted many times to buy a lesser unit, but it just didn't make sense. If I start off at the top, Id have no regrets later about new and improved versions, or wanting later on to get a nicer unit once I had learned what I was missing with the lesser units.

The only thing better I really could've got was a 100 mm 60 hz. Several thousand dollars more for something probably I wouldn't use. As I said in another post, my heart longs for a 2X with the 75mm or 100mm lens. That was just not offered by Armasite that I could see anywhere, other than then a smaller lens which I was not interested then. I knew I wanted to 75 or 100. The trade-off for 75 versus 42 was not enough for 2x to 3x. And I had also decided I wanted to go with the Zeus. They seem to me to be the best company out there. All things considered.

Even then, I realize some basic limitations. I drove by waffle house the other day and for kicks I pulled out my thermal vision and it really hit home at how it doesn't see through glass. And I thought to myself, these guys could be having a meeting with 50 people in there with guns and cannons and a nuclear bomb and I wouldn't even be able to see it!!! Boy that's a major limitation.

For the PVS 14? No problem at all, I could see everything I wanted to see inside the waffle house. Then I thought of another scenario with thermal vision even scarier. Of course this all refers to a **** hits the fan possibility. I'm walking behind a house, some guy cracks open his window to the bathroom and sticks out a shotgun. I scan the back of the house I don't see a threat. I casually walk by said window and casually get said head blown off at shoulders. Yep, I'm convinced that I need a PVS 14.

Of course, somebody could be hiding behind the bushes of the same house and my PVS 14 didn't see him, I casually walk behind same house and he blows the same head off with the same shotgun. And seeing as how you never know which one you need, I can now understand your dual set up.

One of the sad parts of it all? Both of these devices can be one upped with my Fenix 4000 lumen tactical flashlight. Of course I would probably give my position away :)

So again I say, as long as I stick to using my thermal for a living off the woods scenario and using it for hunting I think it's a choice, because all animals are enemies if you look at it like that. No chance of killing a friendly in other words. But the tactical? I'm starting to lean towards night vision.

With that said, since everyone slapped me in the face for not giving the vendors a shot, hello Armasite vendors? Anybody want to give me a killer deal on a Gen3 night vision device? If I'm not mistaken, there's absolutely no reason to get a weapon mounted version, as long as I have an IR laser mounted on the weapon it would be the exact same thing correct? So vendors, throw in a nice IR laser to go with it.
I've got killer deals on gen 3 night vision devices! ;)
 

Ratdog68

LSB Official Story Teller
LSB TURKEY BUZZARD PRESERVATION SOCIETY
SUS VENATOR CLUB
LoneStarBoars Supporter
We need a Lepus Venator banner. This bunny slayer's on a roll.

To the familiar sound of Wagner (Flight of the Valkyries)... "Kiwl da wabbit, kiwl da wabbit,..."
 

Louis Richards

LSB Member
Hey? I feel misled :) I've been playing this thing at night and for the first time I pulled it out just now in the day. I could see everything almost as if it was with a regular scope for it so why do I need this aluminum tape and all that junk again to sight it in? I'm positive I can set up any target and see the spot in the middle, I have great resolution. Is the day view diff from the night view???
 

Jhop

LSB Active Member
SUS VENATOR CLUB
Not really, might loose detail has the humidity levels come up at night and the dew starts covering everything up.
 

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
For L.R.
==
Here are my two helmets side by side

sHj2TwAh.jpg


The one of the left is an Ops Core "Fast" ballistic helmet. It is a M/L size and is closed up and works great in the winter. I can wear my balaklava under it and rain, snow, ice, etc don't come through it and land on my head and it retains the warmth. And if anyone shot me in the helmet with a BB gun it might bounce off :D.
On the left side of the helmet is Gerber 3 lumen Red, Green, Blue, White admin light. These are very useful and hard to see at more than 10-20yds away.
On the right side of the helmet is an ir-illuminator, useful for walking in the woods or shadows or even when shooting with laser into the woods or shadows. Or when yo want to do a critter eyeball check in the woods or shadows.
On the back are batteries and .45ACP magazines as the counterweight.
There are other batteries velcroed here an there. The 9v on top is for a strobe.
In front on the ballistic helmet is the dual mount. I can put both 14s on one helmet with this mount. That is a great setup for driving because you have your depth of field.
The helmet on the right is the Team Wendy "bump" helmet. It is size S/M and fits tight but cannot support balaklava inside. It can support wetsuit top hood. It has slots so it can breath. This is my summer helmet. It is setup identically to the other helmet. I have two mounts a USGI and a mod armory tatm and separate dual bridge. So I can only run duals on one helmet ... or I can run one each singles on two different helmets. In the rare case when someone goes out with me and forgot to bring their 14 and helmet :). That's actually not my 14 on the TW helmet that is a buddies. That is an ABNV device ... I call it a 6/14 because the front end is an ANVIS6 and the backend is a PVS-14. It has more hard plastic for the housing so it is lighter and it has 2AA batteries instead of one so it runs about 50% longer. Down side is not as much crap fits on the objective being that it is an ANVIS6 front. But he got a smokin' deal on it.
 

Louis Richards

LSB Member
I have a military helmet, MSA with a hole drilled in the front and I think I have been told was exactly for that purpose :) But I want the availability to put it on my head also about the helmet. I'll start posting these questions on the thread so I can help others including this one :)

But looks like you have a monocular and not the goggles. I remember you saying that early on I don't know why I got stuck with goggles. Bet your wife really loves you seeing dual helmets sitting there. Convince her that the other one was for her?
 

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
two monoculars == one set of goggles when both are mounted on the same helmet.

So I can have "goggles" on one helmet when I want ... or two monoculars on two different helmets when I want ... best of both worlds.

==
She has worn it before when I've taken her out deer watching or star gazing ... but she prefers just handheld monocular to wearing the helmet. So I rig up a lanyard and drop the 14 around her neck and we are ready to go.
 

wigwamitus

LSB Active Member
You mean why would I want two 14s on my head instead of one?

Twice as much amplified light entering my eyes ... twice as much information ...
Depth of field (distance judgment)
Redundancy (if one 14 dies I'm still seeing through the other one).

==
Or did you mean why would anyone want a goggle unit instead of a dual 14 type unit?

==
Well like helicopter pilots use dedicated goggle systems, because they should only be flying with dual systems.
Goggle systems can be a little simpler (e.g. one on/off switch) and lighter (shared components).
The advantage of the dual 14 system is that it can be split into two single systems.
If you need nV on both eyes most of the time, then dedicate goggles will be better.
If you want maximum flexibility then dual 14s is better.
 
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