Practicing with Night Vision

[Louis Richards]

See the more I hang out, the more I realize that I'm probably a crappy shooter. I can't even see 500 yards much less dream of putting something on paper. I used to think that 500 yard shots were reserved for military snipers and such. But I'm shocked to see regular every day hunters talking about shots at 500 and 600 yards.

That's a nice rifle, looks EXACTLY like mine, except for the silencer, tripod, stick, magazine, scope and of course, my bullets are 12 gauge vs 5.56. Just always stumps me as to why on EARTH I can't reach that yardage..

 

[Louis Richards]

So I decided on my OWN accord, to come over to this thread because I felt that Wigwam was spamming the other one. Ya know, don't try to understand that guys, it's only after being a senior member on here for many many years, that enabled me to have such finite perception concerning situations like that.

 

[Louis Richards]

Of course I'm sure this is a ridiculous question to everybody but a newbie. And believe it or not, 20 minutes or so on Google can't find an answer. That's the problem with Google now days, in my opinion it's been corrupted. There is so much information out there that you cant narrow down fields anymore without picking up tons of information you're not looking for even with select keywords, because those keywords are just associated with too many things. Like the following. Can you use an IR laser with a thermal scope? I know you can with night vision, but does it put off a heat signature? Boy punch in night vision and IR laser in those keywords were produced everything for those things but not in combination with each other.

 

[Jhop]

Nope, not unless you get the pigs to hold the IR light.

Thermal or FLIR is looking for radiant heat. Everything puts off some kind of heat unless it's zero Kelvin. What our thermal scopes is looking for is this heat/thermal radiation(infrared). The objective were looking at puts off different wavelengths of infrared and this is what the sensor is looking for in the thermal scopes we use. The germanium lens is more a less a filter and only allows light in the 8-12 micron range thru it. So unless your IR flashlight or LASER is strong enough to heat up what ever you're shining it, it can't be seen.

 

[Louis Richards]

What do you all think about thermal imaging paper targets? Seems to be a couple companies that sell them for really reasonably priced? Seems simpler then heated water bottles, handwarmers, aluminum duct tape and the rest. So next question, do they sell a laser for thermal imaging?

 

[Jhop]

What do you all think about thermal imaging paper targets. So next question, do they sell a laser for thermal imaging?

I have no clue about thermal imaging paper targets. My guess is that they simply have something applied to them that absorbs the suns heat better than the paper its on. Something like aluminum foil with double sided tape might work good. The foam acting as an insulator to prevent flir inversion(both objects become the same tempature). Now a class IV LASER would work. However it's considered a weapon and I doubt you can get one for personal use.

 

[wigwamitus]

ir laser and thermal can use used to compliment each other ...

Wear a 14 on your helmet. The 14 helps you see and navigate/move around during in the dark.

Zero your ir-laser on your rifle (either in 12 o'clock or 3 o'clock depending on several factors)

Zero your thermal scope on your rifle.

==
Now the 14 on your head and the ir-laser on your rifle act as an alternate aiming system. If you see a target, you might be able to engage more quickly with the laser. If the thermal batteries die at the wrong moment you can switch to the laser.

So you can use them "together" you just can't see the ir-laser with the thermal.

 

[wigwamitus]

I've tried tin foil and it works well sometimes - but not others ... I guess it has to do with the temp and humidity. Once I had the tinfoil show up great for 10m and then disappear. This was during sundown.

Paper box with hole in it works for some people, but I haven't had it work for me.

White paper target with black gorrilla tape works pretty well for me in the day time.

In the day time even regular NRA targets with the "black" scoring circles show up well, I guess the emissivity is different for the black circles.

Water bottles have worked well in the afternoons.

Handwarmers have worked the best at night for me.

I have some purpose made thermal paper targets, but I haven't used them as they cost a lot and I guess I am saving them

The black "see-em" circles also show up well in the day time.

Note in the day time I am usually trying to zero so am usually at 100yds or less. At night I am usually farther away.

 

[Jhop]

I've tried tin foil and it works well sometimes - but not others ... I guess it has to do with the temp and humidity. Once I had the tinfoil show up great for 10m and then disappear. This was during sundow.

That would be a perfect example of flir inversion. The air temperature, and the objects you are looking at become the same tempature. Normally this happans first thing in the morning as the night time air warms and gets to the same tempature as the background objects. This also happans in the evening as the sun goes down and the sun stops heating up objects and they cool. How long the this takes to happens depends on environmental conditions. How hot it was during the day, humidity etc...

 

[Jhop]

Try to put the sun at your back when you're zeroing. The sun will heat up the darker spots or metal to a different tempature on your target. You could use a very small filament type flashlight. Do not use a LED flashlight. The LED does not get hot like a filament type lightbulb.

 

[Louis Richards]

Thought for sure Wigwam after read my spamming post, u would put on your android eyes and hunt me down...

Either u have a great sense of humor, or youre googling my address...

 

[wigwamitus]

I figure when you're ready to talk NV/thermal ... we will resume our dialog!

==
I was out today with q-14 on 5.56(14.5) as a stand alone sight and Zeus on 5.56(18).

For the q-14 I zeroed at 30 yards ... then went to 100yds. The results at 100yds were not impressive ... but then I was struggling with brightness adjustment and pallet selection. I don't shoot much in the day!! I needed to brighten up (relative to night) in order to see both the target and the reticle. It would be nice to have separate brightness control for the thermal and the reticle, but we don't have that.
I need to try some more (only took 10yds for this purpose) but I think I finally got on track.
==
With the Zeus went to 200yds. I'm zeroed (cranked to) about 350yds as at 330yds I need to put the reticle dot exactly under the aiming point. So at 200yds I was trying to hold down about 4 inches ... we had 10 MPH wind at 240 off the bullet path, but it was erratic so I was good for elevation but 5 inch spreads for windage. If one was going to hunt yotes with this setup out to say 500yds ... being cranked to 350yds might be good. But then learning exactly how much to hold up for 500yds or down for 100yds becomes critical. One can never predict the engagement distance. And we might not have time to crank the clicks ... so we have to practice holding .... and with the "nada reticle" on the Zeus that is a challenge!

 

[Louis Richards]

Oooook. The NERVE some people making me discuss thermal imaging on a thermal imaging thread..

I've never really understood the stick for the butt. I have many AR's but the one I use is a Colt LE 6920. SSA-E Geissel 2 stage trigger ( highly recommend ) along with many other upgrades including a tripod and of course MAYBE the Zeus 640. That question comes last.

How are you supposed to use the stick? I cant calculate in my brain how I would ever be able to level both the front and the back of the weapon in a real life situation. The tripod of course is self-explanatory. But when would you ever be in a position to level that with both supports other than having a block or something to put the stick on?

I am not sure about mounting the Zeus in the daytime. Keep in mind now I am not really a hunter, as much as I am a tactical SHTF kind of guy. During broad daylight I would much rather have my AR scope for it so I guess what I'm asking, is how long does it take you to get used to a thermal scope being your main scope 24 hours a day seven week. In other words, when in broad daylight, at what point do you become more accustomed to using a thermal then you would a regular scope? Because I have other AR's, I am thinking about mounting it on one of those weapons and keeping it for a single purpose use. Knowing according to the manual, that once I site it in, I can remove it as many times as I want and when I put it back on it will still remain sited (in theory...) there's no reason I really couldn't use it as a handheld or on another weapon up until that moment.

The problem with tactical situations, is seeing an object is one thing but identifying it is another. With my daytime scope I can tell this is a kid walking a dog or someone angry getting ready to shoot me. That is something that cannot ever be determined with the thermal scope.

 

[Louis Richards]

For the record, one of the reasons I'm asking these questions on a hunting forum versus a tactical forum is because people tend to get a little bizarre and out there on tactical forums. Most of them are wannabes and have never been in a real tactical situation anyway so it's based on opinion not fact. Hunters tend to take hunting much more serious and seem to know more about their actual weapon and scopes the tactical people do.

 

[wigwamitus]

Ah, I wasn't shooting with the thermal in the day to practice shooting with thermal in the day so it would be something I would hunt with or SHTF with ... might in a few edge cases but I agree, I'd use day scopes in the day as a preference.
I was shooting thermal in the day to practice holds in the day because I had a rare couple of hours of free time in the day. But all the day practice has the goal of helping to prepare to hunt at night.
But the gun the Zeus is on will be a dedicated night gun until I take the Zeus off that gun. I won't (usually) swap day scope and night scope every day ... too much hassel to confirm zero after every shift. But I have 556(14.5) with an eotech and an ir-laser ... so it is both a day and night gun right now ... and it is ready to go right now ... the 762 is undergoing a deep clean ... and the .308WIN bolt gun and .338LM bolt gun are ready to come out of summer storage and get cleaned up for winter where prone shooting is possible around here. Summer is a standing up shooting time ... winter is both laying down shooting and standing up shooting.

As to the shooting stick ... the Primos gen2 ... (it has lots of words in the name) ... is a special shooting stick ... because when it works right ... you can deploy it with one hand ... and shift your position with one hand (like from standing to kneeing). You can't do that with tripods ... go check on the video TLM made to show how it works ...
With this shooting stick ... rotating through 360 and shooting way down in terms of elevation or way up ... and ability to do all of that quickly ... is possible ... it is almost designed for hog hunting where you might be facing a field full of hogs ... and after the first volley they will (almost) all be running ... and often in about every direction ... left ... right ... away ... towards you ... up a hill ... down a hill ... and being able to swing around and aim up or down quickly is an enhancer. It is not a bench rest ... and shouldn't be compared to one ... but it is steadier than standing unsupported which is the other primary position people use when hunting hogs. Sometimes you just don't have time to get the stick and use it. So practicing standing unsupported is a good idea.

 

[Louis Richards]

So, from a man obviously well versed in all phases of thermals, NV, day scopes and lasers, what would be your "to go scope" in a SHTF nighttime scenario? Truth be told, my thermal was NEVER meant for tactical. Being a prepper, way before it was a trend and I was considered looney tunes, my thermal was for "living off the land". I'm hungry. Foods gone. It's broad daylight and high lunchtime noon. I stroll in the backyard, engage thermal in the woods, spot a rabbit sleeping in a thicket, and 30 mins later I am eating. That's is a scenario that ONLY thermal can accomplish.

I can't really envision thermal as a tactical device OTHER than one and one possible situation only, so as to minimize killing a friendly. That's I am hunkered down, shooting off some type of envision or attack. Knowing in other words they are ALL MY ENEMY.

Even than....I ask you, what would you prefer? That specific encounter? NV with laser or thermal?

 

[Louis Richards]

Actually that was my fault. By stick I thought you were talking about a sniper stock that has its own support leg. After watching the video I see now what a stick really is.

 

[wigwamitus]

Actually, until you came along I was the "noob" around here ... if you read the first couple of posts in this thread, you will read about how I got started ...

But I have been out at night about 3 times per week for the past 2.5 years practicing ... including a lot of times with just MKIs and a 5 foot cottonwood stick.

==
Around here rabbits, squirrels and such you can walk around and "drive" them to move and pick them off in the day. You don't HAVE to hunt them with thermal. But thermal would make it easier.

==
As to a single hypopthetical SHTF scenario ... I guess I'll start by saying I don't think that is valid ... I don't think it is possible to predict ONE scenario ... if you were going to prepare for SHTF, you would have to prepare for all possible scenarios ... especially those you'd rather not prepare for. But one is home invasions ... defensive CQB ... I'm the least prepared for that one ... but in general if I had to defend my home, I'd rather do it from outside from a distance ... to exploit my advantages and minimize enemy advantages, so night and distance would be my advantages. And we really can't "pick" day or night if we are defending, the attacker chooses time and place of attack. So have to be able to defend during both night and day, during both summer and winter (can't shoot prone from many places around here in the summer).
If I was going to prepare for defensive CQB, I'd get a bunch of outside animals (and we're working on that) ... I want to know BEFORE someone is in the house that someone is in the yard ... our gineas help with that now ... replacing our out door dog (with multiple) ... and chickens and ducks and goats etc. If there is enough in the yard, the intruders can't kill them all before the reminder wake you up.
There are even some semi offensive scenarios where a neighbor calls for help defending against a home invasion.

==

But to be honest I haven't seriously started thinking down that road. We do some of the things preppers and greenies and what do ... but perhaps for different reasons ... our priorities are to learn to supplement our store bought food with what we grow on our land. But perhaps even more importantly to become integrated with our neighbors ... to share with them ... as if the SHTF all we're gonna have is our neighbors

==

Oh what scope? I don't even know how to answer ... which ever one is closest I guess! Goal is to get to be proficient with everything I have and get to the point where "it doesn't matter" I'll do the best I can with what I have available ... and not get hung up on one piece of gear or technology ... that will be the first thing that breaks if I do ...

 

[wigwamitus]

2015-09-20
2100-2300
50F
5 MPH SE

Goals: Approaching a full kit drive/walk.

Environment: Moon 50%, bales still on the ground, light breeze from SE. The bales add an interesting aspect, because normally in winter the pastures on my land are low grass and very open ... and anything "substantial" standing out in those pastures is a critter. But now there are many "hot spots" out there and one has to scan slowly to be able to be sure none of them are moving. After a while you get used to the patterns but some are so close together along LOS that I still scan slowly.

Equipment: 5.56(18) with Zeus, sling, stick, SPW556, 3 20rd mags with 18rds of xm183 FLC 55gr in mag holder. Bipod, Zeus. Helmet with ir-illum and 3L RGBW admin, 4xCR123 and 9xAA and 1x7rd .45ACP mag on helmet. PVS-14 on left side of helmet. Q-14 and DVR in belt pouch, LRF in pouch, 14 3x magnifier in pouch, canteen, .45ACP in Serpa, garden seat, Buggy. Pockets, 1000L taclight, 300L light, 3L RGBW (yes I have another one in my pocket), pocket knife.

Activity: Rolled out to main South pasture ... setup beside a bale about 50yds East of the crest of "Signal Hill" (my highest point below the crest) ... ranged main features (which are already known, but I practice) and ranged a few bales as well. Did some "yip yips" and got response from three groups of coyotes, one group (of 2) to the WSW, 1 group of 1 to the East and one group of 1 to the NE. I'd estimate they were all about 600yds.
Batteries on the Zeus were low so I changed them. Batteries on the q-14 were low so I changed them.

Then rolled to North side of creek in Alfalfa patch and setup at a corner post along a South fence/tree line to be in shadows relative to the moon. Ranged primary features (already done but repeat for practice) and a few bales. The NE corner of this patch is 434 yards from the corner post I set up at. The corner post offers 270 degree FOV in the alfalfa patch and if I turn around offers 90 degree FOV into our apple orchard.

In both cases I setup cross wind with respect to the bulk of the visible area.

Saw a deer in the alfalfa patch, the fence in that direction is 130yds, so deer inside fence at about 120yds. I had not intended to take DVR, but after spotting the deer I decided to try. So I pulled out the DVR and connected to the q-14. Had to turn on 3L RGBW admin light (on red) to line up the two white lines). DVR still did not come on. Checked batteries. Only one battery! Removed that and pulled 2 more c123 exhausting all the c123 on the helmet (still had some in pack). Then DVR comes up. Then 2 more deer show up. I think these are mother and fawn I've a few other times recently. Then some coyotes start howling (2) at about 600yds to the NE. The deer head towards the coyotes (what r they thinking!?) ... noted q-14 batteries showing significant use, so powered down.

[video]

I did some scanning with the Zeus, it also quickly shows usage on the batteries, much faster than the apollo did. The apollo would go an hour before the green indicator showed usage. I can see I might have to come up with some more cash for the extended battery pack. It looks like it has a y-cord, so DVR can be used also. That would be a lot of crap on the rifle (or the helmet if used with the q-14). The q-14 has an extender cap that allows use of the "red" batteries ... I need to get some of those.
Harder to scan with the Zeus, the 3x magnification makes a lot of work ...

On both q-14 and Zeus I manipulated the focus, the diopter, the brightness and the pallets to experiment with getting the best image. I still like Sepia for default scanning on the q-14 ... if I actually see something of interest one click gets me to white hot and another to black hot. The bales showed up better in black hot ... the deer showed up better in white hot last night.

Results: First exercise resembling full kit ... and I took buggy with extra crap just in case ... and needed it! I need more than 4 CR123 on the helmet!!! Scanning with the Zeus is a chore ... it is good to have a handheld scanner, I can scan landscape quickly with handheld scanner. Buggy windshield fogged up on return trip, so had to open it up. PVS-14 also fogged up a little, I did not use fogtech first.

 

[Louis Richards]

Well, that scenario I gave was very specific in nature. So even though there are a lot of variables, not concerning the specific one I gave

Let's make it easier. It's nighttime, you're shooting at unFriendly's for absolutely sure. Thermal or NV & laser? The thing is I don't want to go out to spend another $5000 if all the answers are going to come in thermal. In short, is my thermal sufficient for all scenarios, with only night vision having an additional slight benefit? Or is there a major benefit in some situations to night vision.