Practicing with Night Vision
- Thread starter wigwamitus
- Start date
Heal quickly Wig.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
Rolled out last night (2100-2200) on 4-wheeler with 14 on helmet checking pastures ... had applied anti-fog juice to interior side of lo-pro eye-pro ... they were covering eyes behind 14 and preventing buggies and branches (I have to pass through several chunks of woods to cross creeks) from bouncing off eyeballs while rolling. No fogging. It was 90F.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
2015-07-29
2100-2200
65F
05 MPH NE
Goals: Check .22LR and 5.56 at 50yds.
Environment: Warm, but a bit of a breeze. We had a significant rain 12-18 hours ago and overcast this morning, but clear and breezy tonight. Almost full moon. Activity was in dusk conditions.
Equipment: .22LR, sling, Eley Edge, V/O 1-6x (3x), ir-laser, 5.56 (14.5), sling, FLC XM193, EOTEC with 3x magnifier, Steiner CQBL-1, PRS Tripod, Primos shooting stick, LRF.
Activity: Neighbor (Tom) graciously would help check rifles. Set up target on berm near buildings, weeds had grown so high, time saved by shooting near buildings was spent clearing weeds
LRF'd 50yd FP. I had Tom count down 3-2-1-bang, he had 5.56, I had .22LR, we were both to fire 5 rds. He had PRS Tripod, I had Primos.
G01 - 4 rds - 50yds - 8+8+8+7 - avg 7.75 (Moi - .22LR) - precision (group size) 2.5
G11 - 5 rds - 50yds - 8+8+8+8+8 - avg 8 (Tom - 5.56) - precision (group size) 4.5
G02 - 5 rds - 50yds - 10+9+9+9+9 - avg 9.2 (Moi - 5.56) - precision (group size) 2.0
G12 - 5rds - 50yds - 10+10+9+9+8 = avg 9.2 (Tom - .22LR) - precision (group size) 3.5
I only had 4 rds in the first mag, my fault, can't count.
We swapped rifles between the first volley and the second. Again, process was Tom counts 3-2-1 and then we fire 5rds each, he at left target, me at right target. Volley #2, groups G11 and G12 were aimed 2 inches low both both shooters, this was to offset our uphill shooting, though perhaps some adjustment will need to be made to both setups.
Results:
Tom won slightly on accuracy with an average score per round of 8.6 versus my 8.475
I won slightly on precision with average group size of 2.25 version Tom's 4.0
Based on these results, I determined not to make adjustments to the optics.
2100-2200
65F
05 MPH NE
Goals: Check .22LR and 5.56 at 50yds.
Environment: Warm, but a bit of a breeze. We had a significant rain 12-18 hours ago and overcast this morning, but clear and breezy tonight. Almost full moon. Activity was in dusk conditions.
Equipment: .22LR, sling, Eley Edge, V/O 1-6x (3x), ir-laser, 5.56 (14.5), sling, FLC XM193, EOTEC with 3x magnifier, Steiner CQBL-1, PRS Tripod, Primos shooting stick, LRF.
Activity: Neighbor (Tom) graciously would help check rifles. Set up target on berm near buildings, weeds had grown so high, time saved by shooting near buildings was spent clearing weeds
LRF'd 50yd FP. I had Tom count down 3-2-1-bang, he had 5.56, I had .22LR, we were both to fire 5 rds. He had PRS Tripod, I had Primos.
G01 - 4 rds - 50yds - 8+8+8+7 - avg 7.75 (Moi - .22LR) - precision (group size) 2.5
G11 - 5 rds - 50yds - 8+8+8+8+8 - avg 8 (Tom - 5.56) - precision (group size) 4.5
G02 - 5 rds - 50yds - 10+9+9+9+9 - avg 9.2 (Moi - 5.56) - precision (group size) 2.0
G12 - 5rds - 50yds - 10+10+9+9+8 = avg 9.2 (Tom - .22LR) - precision (group size) 3.5
I only had 4 rds in the first mag, my fault, can't count.
We swapped rifles between the first volley and the second. Again, process was Tom counts 3-2-1 and then we fire 5rds each, he at left target, me at right target. Volley #2, groups G11 and G12 were aimed 2 inches low both both shooters, this was to offset our uphill shooting, though perhaps some adjustment will need to be made to both setups.
Results:
Tom won slightly on accuracy with an average score per round of 8.6 versus my 8.475
I won slightly on precision with average group size of 2.25 version Tom's 4.0
Based on these results, I determined not to make adjustments to the optics.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
2015-08-02
2000-2100
80F
03 MPH WSW
Goals: Check .22LR and 5.56.
Environment: Hot, was sweaty in house just preparing to go out. Dusk conditions. One advantage of shooting in the day, is I can SEE the mosquitoes buzzing around me.
Equipment: .22LR, sling, Eley Edge, V/O 1-6x (3x), ir-laser, 5.56 (14.5), sling, FLC XM193, EOTEC with 3x magnifier, Steiner CQBL-1, PRS Tripod, Primos shooting stick, LRF.
Activity: First wanted to confirm zeros at 50yds. All shots are standing stick.
G01 - 2rds - 50yds - 10+9 avg 9.5 (5.56)
Called it good.
G02 - 2rds - 50yds - 8+8 avg 8 (.22LR )
A bit to the right, cranked 2 clicks (.4 mil) on the VO
G03 - 3rds - 50yds - 10+9+9 avg 9.33 (.22LR)
called it good.
At 50yds I was shooting straight down the buggy trail at the target, so I could lase the target. However, at 100yds it was impossible to lase the target due to height of grass. I had to lase the weeds growing higher up on the berm above the target. Lasing something like a deer in the pasture right now would be tough. I'd have to lase something nearby and extrapolate, accuracy would be affected.
G04 - 2rds - 100yds - 8+6 avg 7 ( 5.56)
I was high as expected.
G05 - 5rds - 100yds - 10+9+8+8+8 avg 8.6 ( 5.56 )
Aiming down towards the bottom of the black circle.
Results: I think I am zeroed at 50yds with both rifles. With the .22LR I probably want to be zeroed at 30yds, but 50yds is ok. With the 5.56 I might want to be zeroed at 100yds or even 150yds.
At 50yds I did co-witness the visible laser with the EOTECH dot. So, next time I can check the ir-laser (they are slaved in the CQBL-1) at 100yds by aiming down like I did with the EOTECH today.
So next time will shoot at night ... ir-laser for the 5.56 and thermal for the .22LR.
2000-2100
80F
03 MPH WSW
Goals: Check .22LR and 5.56.
Environment: Hot, was sweaty in house just preparing to go out. Dusk conditions. One advantage of shooting in the day, is I can SEE the mosquitoes buzzing around me.
Equipment: .22LR, sling, Eley Edge, V/O 1-6x (3x), ir-laser, 5.56 (14.5), sling, FLC XM193, EOTEC with 3x magnifier, Steiner CQBL-1, PRS Tripod, Primos shooting stick, LRF.
Activity: First wanted to confirm zeros at 50yds. All shots are standing stick.
G01 - 2rds - 50yds - 10+9 avg 9.5 (5.56)
Called it good.
G02 - 2rds - 50yds - 8+8 avg 8 (.22LR )
A bit to the right, cranked 2 clicks (.4 mil) on the VO
G03 - 3rds - 50yds - 10+9+9 avg 9.33 (.22LR)
called it good.
At 50yds I was shooting straight down the buggy trail at the target, so I could lase the target. However, at 100yds it was impossible to lase the target due to height of grass. I had to lase the weeds growing higher up on the berm above the target. Lasing something like a deer in the pasture right now would be tough. I'd have to lase something nearby and extrapolate, accuracy would be affected.
G04 - 2rds - 100yds - 8+6 avg 7 ( 5.56)
I was high as expected.
G05 - 5rds - 100yds - 10+9+8+8+8 avg 8.6 ( 5.56 )
Aiming down towards the bottom of the black circle.
Results: I think I am zeroed at 50yds with both rifles. With the .22LR I probably want to be zeroed at 30yds, but 50yds is ok. With the 5.56 I might want to be zeroed at 100yds or even 150yds.
At 50yds I did co-witness the visible laser with the EOTECH dot. So, next time I can check the ir-laser (they are slaved in the CQBL-1) at 100yds by aiming down like I did with the EOTECH today.
So next time will shoot at night ... ir-laser for the 5.56 and thermal for the .22LR.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
2015-08-03
2000-2130
80F
03 MPH ESE
Activity: I was using tractor and brush-hog to mow a corner of the alfalfa patch which has become overgrown with weeds. I noticed a coyote about 150yds North of me in the middle of the alfalfa patch heading West to East. I stopped the tractor and dismounted and started jogging towards the coyote to see how close I could get. I took out my pocket knife, so I could say hello if needed. The tractor was making lots of noise, so that covered my noise. There is one locust tree trying to emerge from the one gully in the middle of the pasture. The Coyote, still hadn't detected me as I got to about 80yds and the locust tree came between us, so now I had the one chunk of concealment in the whole field working for me. The wind was ESE and the coyote was heading in to the wind, so I was in a cross wind position. As the coyote and I emerged from behind the tree I think the coyote finally heard me as it looked at me from about 40yds and then quickly ran 300yds away across the pasture and in to a tree line. So I had been able to approach to within 40yds at a jog in the day time, due to a combination of circumstances. I left a sign for the coyote in the spot it had turned and departed.
Our Gineas had been about 100yds SW of the tractor position where I left it about 5 minutes prior. So I was "harrassing" the coyote. It was solid red-brown with a medium sized bushy tail.
==
2200-2330
70F
03 MPH ESE
Goal: Check 5.56 with thermal.
Environment: After I returned, the thermometer said 70F, but it sure felt hotter and sticker out there. However, I did not detect any mosquitoes, has their season past!? The stars were fairly visible. The tree line I am near when shooting from the 50-100yd positions blocks some LOS but I was able to see both the big dipper and cygnus. The moon was starting to rise in the east by the end of the session, but was not up over the horizon.
Equipment: 5.56, sling, FLC xm193, cqbl-1, eotech, 3x, thermal, stick, canteen, LRF, 14 on helmet.
Activity:
I could not focus the thermal correctly at 50yds, I flipped the 3x magnifier to the side, but still had issues focusing.
I was able to lase the target at 50yds due to the buggy trail LOS. I was not able to lase at 100yd, had to guess, but I just stood close to where I was previous night. At 100yds, I cannot see the whole target, just the top half, due to the high grass but as usual, I aim where I know the center of the target is and count on dr. physics to do his part.
G01 - 2 rds - 50yds - 0 + 0 avg 0
high and left, cranked from 75 to 85 on the top margin and 35 to 25 on the left margin.
G02 - 2 rds - 50yds - 6 + 0 avg 3
low, centered, scattered. Crank to 83 on top margin.
G03 - 2 rds - 50yds 8+7 avg 7.5
low and centered. Running out of ammo, so went to 100yds.
I was able to focus fine at 100yds with the 3x magnifier in place.
G04 - 2rds - 100yds 7 + 5 avg 6
high but centered. I was aiming dead center, so this group is placed fine. I should be high. Next time will aim low and I should be on target.
Summary: Once I get done zeroing the thermal and laser, I can go standing unsupported without the stick, but still using the stick for zeroing. I am six weeks since breaking collar bone on right shooting side. I do not notice any issue when shooting the 5.56.
2000-2130
80F
03 MPH ESE
Activity: I was using tractor and brush-hog to mow a corner of the alfalfa patch which has become overgrown with weeds. I noticed a coyote about 150yds North of me in the middle of the alfalfa patch heading West to East. I stopped the tractor and dismounted and started jogging towards the coyote to see how close I could get. I took out my pocket knife, so I could say hello if needed. The tractor was making lots of noise, so that covered my noise. There is one locust tree trying to emerge from the one gully in the middle of the pasture. The Coyote, still hadn't detected me as I got to about 80yds and the locust tree came between us, so now I had the one chunk of concealment in the whole field working for me. The wind was ESE and the coyote was heading in to the wind, so I was in a cross wind position. As the coyote and I emerged from behind the tree I think the coyote finally heard me as it looked at me from about 40yds and then quickly ran 300yds away across the pasture and in to a tree line. So I had been able to approach to within 40yds at a jog in the day time, due to a combination of circumstances. I left a sign for the coyote in the spot it had turned and departed.
Our Gineas had been about 100yds SW of the tractor position where I left it about 5 minutes prior. So I was "harrassing" the coyote. It was solid red-brown with a medium sized bushy tail.
==
2200-2330
70F
03 MPH ESE
Goal: Check 5.56 with thermal.
Environment: After I returned, the thermometer said 70F, but it sure felt hotter and sticker out there. However, I did not detect any mosquitoes, has their season past!? The stars were fairly visible. The tree line I am near when shooting from the 50-100yd positions blocks some LOS but I was able to see both the big dipper and cygnus. The moon was starting to rise in the east by the end of the session, but was not up over the horizon.
Equipment: 5.56, sling, FLC xm193, cqbl-1, eotech, 3x, thermal, stick, canteen, LRF, 14 on helmet.
Activity:
I could not focus the thermal correctly at 50yds, I flipped the 3x magnifier to the side, but still had issues focusing.
I was able to lase the target at 50yds due to the buggy trail LOS. I was not able to lase at 100yd, had to guess, but I just stood close to where I was previous night. At 100yds, I cannot see the whole target, just the top half, due to the high grass but as usual, I aim where I know the center of the target is and count on dr. physics to do his part.
G01 - 2 rds - 50yds - 0 + 0 avg 0
high and left, cranked from 75 to 85 on the top margin and 35 to 25 on the left margin.
G02 - 2 rds - 50yds - 6 + 0 avg 3
low, centered, scattered. Crank to 83 on top margin.
G03 - 2 rds - 50yds 8+7 avg 7.5
low and centered. Running out of ammo, so went to 100yds.
I was able to focus fine at 100yds with the 3x magnifier in place.
G04 - 2rds - 100yds 7 + 5 avg 6
high but centered. I was aiming dead center, so this group is placed fine. I should be high. Next time will aim low and I should be on target.
Summary: Once I get done zeroing the thermal and laser, I can go standing unsupported without the stick, but still using the stick for zeroing. I am six weeks since breaking collar bone on right shooting side. I do not notice any issue when shooting the 5.56.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
2200-2330
60F
03 MPH ESE
Goal: Check 5.56 with thermal.
Environment: It was actually "cool-ish" feeling last night as we had rain in the morning and overcast most of the day, high was in the 70s. Milk Way totally visible, big dipper and cygnus visible with naked eye. Moon glow visible on the horizon at end of session, but moon did not rise which I was out, that happens later and later and the cycle progresses.
Equipment: 5.56, sling, FLC xm193, cqbl-1, eotech, 3x, thermal, stick, canteen, LRF, 14 on helmet.
Activity:
Final lase on target was 50yds. This was first time actually shooting with CQBL-1 ir-laser.
G01 - 2 rds (ir-laser) - 50yds - 8+9 avg 8.5 (1.87 inch)
G02 - 2 rds (thermal) - 50yds - 10+9 avg 9.5 (1.75 inch)
As per usual I use US Army scoring, which is that the center of the hole needs to be inside the higher score ring to draw the higher score, this is versus NRA scoring which say hole must just cross the line to the higher score circle to count. So a couple of the 9s would be 10s if using NRA scoring.
At 50yds, I did not use any magnification, so I could get the clearest image. So the eotech mag was flipped to the side and no 3x mag on the 14.
G01 with the IR-laser was high and needs to be adjusted. The thermal looked to be dead on.
Lasing target at 100yds was tough, final lase was 102, but avg was 80, due to height of grass.
G03 - 1 rd (ir-laser) - 100yds - 5 avg 5 (OO inch)
Forgot to aim down, realized mistake as soon as trigger pulled. Right now I am trying to be zeroed at 50yds, so have to hold down at 100yds ... got it Joe !!??
The ir-laser was getting split into 6-12 fragments by the high grass, so it was tough to aim! Also, I could not see the target at 100yds, with the 14. Even adding the 3x on 14 could not see target. Turned on helment ir-illum and could see the target. Only the top half of the target was visible, but that was enough. Trying to aim bottom center of the black circle.
G04 - 2 rds (ir-laser) - 100yds - 8+9 avg 8.5 ( 3 inch )
The thermal was loose, the mount not fitting to the rail, so I had to remove it and adjust it. Have had to do this both of the last 2 times. It is either too lose or too tight. Need new Bobro mount - Aaron !!! It took a while, but it got done (in the dark).
G05 - 2 rds (thermal) - 100yds - 10+9 avg 9.5 (1 inch)
Good group.
Summary/Results:
So the ir-laser needs to be adjusted down a tad to be on target at 50yds. Then I'm zeroed at 50yds. I think then I want to adjust to be zeroed at 100yds. Hoping to go hog hunting in nearby states where it is legal, this fall/winter, and being zeroed at 100yds makes sense. Most shots will be between 50yds and 150yds.
So I will crank the thermal top margin from 83 to 85 and see if that is enough. The CQBL manual gives no indication of the click value, so I will try 2 clicks in the down direction, which will be CCW looking down at the device with the crank on the bottom of the device, which I have in 3 o'clock.
Once zero confirmed at 100yds, then we switch to standing unsupported. I expect 50% of shots to be standing unsupported.
60F
03 MPH ESE
Goal: Check 5.56 with thermal.
Environment: It was actually "cool-ish" feeling last night as we had rain in the morning and overcast most of the day, high was in the 70s. Milk Way totally visible, big dipper and cygnus visible with naked eye. Moon glow visible on the horizon at end of session, but moon did not rise which I was out, that happens later and later and the cycle progresses.
Equipment: 5.56, sling, FLC xm193, cqbl-1, eotech, 3x, thermal, stick, canteen, LRF, 14 on helmet.
Activity:
Final lase on target was 50yds. This was first time actually shooting with CQBL-1 ir-laser.
G01 - 2 rds (ir-laser) - 50yds - 8+9 avg 8.5 (1.87 inch)
G02 - 2 rds (thermal) - 50yds - 10+9 avg 9.5 (1.75 inch)
As per usual I use US Army scoring, which is that the center of the hole needs to be inside the higher score ring to draw the higher score, this is versus NRA scoring which say hole must just cross the line to the higher score circle to count. So a couple of the 9s would be 10s if using NRA scoring.
At 50yds, I did not use any magnification, so I could get the clearest image. So the eotech mag was flipped to the side and no 3x mag on the 14.
G01 with the IR-laser was high and needs to be adjusted. The thermal looked to be dead on.
Lasing target at 100yds was tough, final lase was 102, but avg was 80, due to height of grass.
G03 - 1 rd (ir-laser) - 100yds - 5 avg 5 (OO inch)
Forgot to aim down, realized mistake as soon as trigger pulled. Right now I am trying to be zeroed at 50yds, so have to hold down at 100yds ... got it Joe !!??
The ir-laser was getting split into 6-12 fragments by the high grass, so it was tough to aim! Also, I could not see the target at 100yds, with the 14. Even adding the 3x on 14 could not see target. Turned on helment ir-illum and could see the target. Only the top half of the target was visible, but that was enough. Trying to aim bottom center of the black circle.
G04 - 2 rds (ir-laser) - 100yds - 8+9 avg 8.5 ( 3 inch )
The thermal was loose, the mount not fitting to the rail, so I had to remove it and adjust it. Have had to do this both of the last 2 times. It is either too lose or too tight. Need new Bobro mount - Aaron !!!
It took a while, but it got done (in the dark).G05 - 2 rds (thermal) - 100yds - 10+9 avg 9.5 (1 inch)
Good group.
Summary/Results:
So the ir-laser needs to be adjusted down a tad to be on target at 50yds. Then I'm zeroed at 50yds. I think then I want to adjust to be zeroed at 100yds. Hoping to go hog hunting in nearby states where it is legal, this fall/winter, and being zeroed at 100yds makes sense. Most shots will be between 50yds and 150yds.
So I will crank the thermal top margin from 83 to 85 and see if that is enough. The CQBL manual gives no indication of the click value, so I will try 2 clicks in the down direction, which will be CCW looking down at the device with the crank on the bottom of the device, which I have in 3 o'clock.
Once zero confirmed at 100yds, then we switch to standing unsupported. I expect 50% of shots to be standing unsupported.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
2015-08-09
1000-1200
80F
05 MPH S
Goals: .22LR at 50yds, 5.56 (14.5") at 100yds, 5.56 (18") at 50yds
Environment: Muggy and buggy. At start, no wind and light rain, by end, 5 MPH S and no rain. Overcast.
Equipment:
.22lr, sling, eley edge, VO 1-6x (3x)
5.56 (14.5"), sling, xm193, eotech (w/3x)
5.56 (18"), Black Hills 77gr SMK (BH77), L&S 3.5-10x TMR (3.5x)
Activity:
.22LR - decided to keep zero of .22LR at 50yds. If I was shooting at a rat (tree or ground) or a rabbit, etc. 30yds is a more likely engagement distance, but 50yds, might be the extreme and better to hold down in these situations than up I think.
G01 - 2rds - 50yds - 7+7 avg 7
I decided I was aiming too far to the right. No adjustment.
G02 - 3rds - 50yds - 10+9+6 avg 8.33
The high right round was an IBF (inadvertant bump fire) which hasn't happened on this rifle in almost a year, since I put milspec lower on it. Trigger finger too light.
G03 - 5rds - 50yds - 10+9+9+7+6 avg 8.2
2 rds right and high ... is that aiming issue? trigger control issue? breathing issue? My guess is the rifle is zeroed, just not the shoorter . This will give me something to work on. "Aim for the center of the wobble" as KSE would say!
==
5.56 (18") - this is first time ever shooting this rifle. Had no idea what to expect so started at 10yds.
G11.1 - 1rd - 10yds
low and left, cranked up 8 clicks and right 8 clicks (1 click = 0.5 MOA)
G11.2 - 1rd - 10yds
low and left, cranked up 10 clicks and right 10 clicks
G11.3 - 1rd - 10yds
low and left, cranked up 4 clicks and right 8 clicks
G11.4 - 2rds - 10yds - 10+10 avg 10
decided to go to 50yds
G12.1 - 1rd - 50yds
waaay high, cranked down 4 clicks
G12.2 - 1rd - 50yds
cranked down 4 clicks
G12.3 - 1rd - 50yds
cranked down 4 clicks
G12.4 - 1rd - 50yds
cranked down 4 clicks and left 1 click
G12.5 - 1rd - 50yds
cranked down 4 clicks and right 1 click
G12.6 - 1rd - 50yds
Finally in the ball park. I had 2 feed issues with the 2nd and third rounds. None after that. Will try some more cleaning.
==
5.56 (14.5") - trying to crank the EOTECH down for 100yds (from 50yds) so tried 2 clicks down.
G31 - 4rds - 100yds 5+5+5+0 avg 4.75
2 clicks not enough! Tried 4 more clicks down and 1 right.
G32 - 4rds - 100yds 7+7+6+6 avg 6.5
too many clicks down and right! Went 2 clicks up and 1 click left.
G33 - 4rds - 100yds 8+8+7+7 avg 7.5
elevation good, windage probably is too, I guess I am having aiming issue.
G41 - 4rds - 100yds 10+10+8+8 avg 9
G42 - 3rds = 100yds 10+8+8 avg 8.5
Summary/Results:
.22LR - seemed to have intermittant "high/right" problem. Want to do more 50yds day time shooting to investigate further. I think I will switch to whie paper targets with black dot centers and crank up magnification to 6x. I should then be able to see the holes, unless I hit the black dot.
5.56 (18") will try cleaning to see if I can adjust the feed issues. Also will check trigger screws to make sure they are tight. This lower had been on the 5.56(14.5") and did not have issues if I stuck to FLC or BH ammo. I stopped after 11 rounds as that was all I took to the field.
5.56 (14.5") Given that I can only see the top half of the target at 100yds, perhaps the spread of impact is ok, though I suspect I can do better, given 3 tens out of last 7 rds. If I get lucky that often, I want to try to get lucky a little more often!
I am down to 20yds xm193, ordered more Friday. I have plenty of BH77 so I can do some more with 5.56(18) and I have plenty of FLC 62gr, but I don't shoot that, just leave it in the cans. And I have plenty of eley edge.
I tried to co-witness the visible laser on the 5.56 (14.5) to the EOTECH, but the laser would not come on, so I'm guessing I have to switch the batteries. I was not left on! So I am surprised it needs to batteries so soon.
1000-1200
80F
05 MPH S
Goals: .22LR at 50yds, 5.56 (14.5") at 100yds, 5.56 (18") at 50yds
Environment: Muggy and buggy. At start, no wind and light rain, by end, 5 MPH S and no rain. Overcast.
Equipment:
.22lr, sling, eley edge, VO 1-6x (3x)
5.56 (14.5"), sling, xm193, eotech (w/3x)
5.56 (18"), Black Hills 77gr SMK (BH77), L&S 3.5-10x TMR (3.5x)
Activity:
.22LR - decided to keep zero of .22LR at 50yds. If I was shooting at a rat (tree or ground) or a rabbit, etc. 30yds is a more likely engagement distance, but 50yds, might be the extreme and better to hold down in these situations than up I think.
G01 - 2rds - 50yds - 7+7 avg 7
I decided I was aiming too far to the right. No adjustment.
G02 - 3rds - 50yds - 10+9+6 avg 8.33
The high right round was an IBF (inadvertant bump fire) which hasn't happened on this rifle in almost a year, since I put milspec lower on it. Trigger finger too light.
G03 - 5rds - 50yds - 10+9+9+7+6 avg 8.2
2 rds right and high ... is that aiming issue? trigger control issue? breathing issue? My guess is the rifle is zeroed, just not the shoorter
. This will give me something to work on. "Aim for the center of the wobble" as KSE would say!
==
5.56 (18") - this is first time ever shooting this rifle. Had no idea what to expect so started at 10yds.
G11.1 - 1rd - 10yds
low and left, cranked up 8 clicks and right 8 clicks (1 click = 0.5 MOA)
G11.2 - 1rd - 10yds
low and left, cranked up 10 clicks and right 10 clicks
G11.3 - 1rd - 10yds
low and left, cranked up 4 clicks and right 8 clicks
G11.4 - 2rds - 10yds - 10+10 avg 10
decided to go to 50yds
G12.1 - 1rd - 50yds
waaay high, cranked down 4 clicks
G12.2 - 1rd - 50yds
cranked down 4 clicks
G12.3 - 1rd - 50yds
cranked down 4 clicks
G12.4 - 1rd - 50yds
cranked down 4 clicks and left 1 click
G12.5 - 1rd - 50yds
cranked down 4 clicks and right 1 click
G12.6 - 1rd - 50yds
Finally in the ball park. I had 2 feed issues with the 2nd and third rounds. None after that. Will try some more cleaning.
==
5.56 (14.5") - trying to crank the EOTECH down for 100yds (from 50yds) so tried 2 clicks down.
G31 - 4rds - 100yds 5+5+5+0 avg 4.75
2 clicks not enough! Tried 4 more clicks down and 1 right.
G32 - 4rds - 100yds 7+7+6+6 avg 6.5
too many clicks down and right! Went 2 clicks up and 1 click left.
G33 - 4rds - 100yds 8+8+7+7 avg 7.5
elevation good, windage probably is too, I guess I am having aiming issue.
G41 - 4rds - 100yds 10+10+8+8 avg 9
G42 - 3rds = 100yds 10+8+8 avg 8.5
Summary/Results:
.22LR - seemed to have intermittant "high/right" problem. Want to do more 50yds day time shooting to investigate further. I think I will switch to whie paper targets with black dot centers and crank up magnification to 6x. I should then be able to see the holes, unless I hit the black dot.
5.56 (18") will try cleaning to see if I can adjust the feed issues. Also will check trigger screws to make sure they are tight. This lower had been on the 5.56(14.5") and did not have issues if I stuck to FLC or BH ammo. I stopped after 11 rounds as that was all I took to the field.
5.56 (14.5") Given that I can only see the top half of the target at 100yds, perhaps the spread of impact is ok, though I suspect I can do better, given 3 tens out of last 7 rds. If I get lucky that often, I want to try to get lucky a little more often!
I am down to 20yds xm193, ordered more Friday. I have plenty of BH77 so I can do some more with 5.56(18) and I have plenty of FLC 62gr, but I don't shoot that, just leave it in the cans. And I have plenty of eley edge.
I tried to co-witness the visible laser on the 5.56 (14.5) to the EOTECH, but the laser would not come on, so I'm guessing I have to switch the batteries. I was not left on! So I am surprised it needs to batteries so soon.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
2015-08-09
1400-1530
90F
00 MPH NW
Goals: .22LR 50yds, 5.56 (18) 100yds.
Enviroment: Hot, muggy and buggy. No wind, the bugs LOVE the no wind scenario. Still basically flies these days, no mosquitoes. Where did they go?
Equipment:
Same as earlier today (as shown above).
Activity.
Had five rounds BH77 in new 20rd PMAG. First 4 rounds went down range and impacted target, from 100yds, I cranked down for the second 2 rounds and needed to crank up a little. The fifth round had a stoppage. The bolt did not go all the way home and the round was not all the way in the chamber. The mag was empty, so I removed it. I pull out pocket knife and attempt to pry the round out, but no joy. I noticed a piece of "foreign material" lodged between the rear of the cartridge and the back edge of the chamber. Tried to pry out the foreign material, no joy.
Did RTB.
Could not separate upper from lower even after removing both front and rear pins as bcg still too far back in the buffer tube. Got screw driver and jostled the cartridge and foreign material and eventually the f.m. fell out. Then when I pushed on the front of the cartridge with cleaning rod through the front of barrel, the cartridge fell out easily.
Took everything apart. There was a tiny amount of brass shavings in the extractor cave, but that is fairly normal. There is a small scratch on the left side feed ramp. I cleaned around the rear of the lugs with a dental pic and there was a small amount of gunk.
History of this rifle:
Purchased about a month ago by me, from a person on the Kansas gun forum I frequent. I had never fired it before today, due to collar bone injury reducing my shooting schedule.
Per the guy I bought it from, he purchased it from another forum member, who is a MOD on the forum and is fairly well known, the first guy built the rifle, the guy I bought it from made no mods. The upper is COLT, the barrel and bolt are Larue, the BCG is BCM. The lower he sold with it is Spikes and I moved that over to my 5.56(14.5) due to it having carbine length buffer/stock. I moved the UT Arms lower over from the 5.56(14.5) to the 5.56(18) as it has not given any problems with the 5.56(14.5) BCM upper for the past year (about 800 rds down range). I have only been shooting three types of 5.56, Federal Lake City (FLC) 62gr, FLC 55gr and BH77 (Black Hill SMK 77gr). I was shooting BH77gr out of the 5.56(18). Guy I bought it from stated he had about 140rds through it. He stated reason for selling was that he wanted a heavier barrel. I wanted a light barrel, so it seemed to make sense.
So could switching the lowers matter?
I don't see how, but for testing, I will switch them back and see if it matters.
Could the foreign material (f.m.) have already been inside the upper? The round that came out doesn't seem to have a chunk of metal missing. The f.m. seems to be a piece of a copper jacketed bullet. Where did it come from? Did it come from one of the previous 4 rounds I had just fired?
The feed ramps to do not damaged, other than minor scratch. There are no "pock" marks on the feed ramps.
I have fired a total of 11 + 4 rounds through the rifle. In the 11 round batch there were 2 feed issues. The bolt did not go all the way home. I hand feed those two cartridges and they worked fine. The 16th round had the level-4 stoppage and that's where I am.
I will first test with the lower that was on that rifle and report back. Any thoughts welcome.
I guess my concern is that the BCG being BCM and the barrel, lugs and bolt being Larue might somehow not be matching up. If that is the case, I might be hosed. Maybe another possibility is that the lugs and bolt just aren't matched up from a CW/CCW perspective and that should be fixable.
More testing will give more data.
1400-1530
90F
00 MPH NW
Goals: .22LR 50yds, 5.56 (18) 100yds.
Enviroment: Hot, muggy and buggy. No wind, the bugs LOVE the no wind scenario. Still basically flies these days, no mosquitoes. Where did they go?
Equipment:
Same as earlier today (as shown above).
Activity.
Had five rounds BH77 in new 20rd PMAG. First 4 rounds went down range and impacted target, from 100yds, I cranked down for the second 2 rounds and needed to crank up a little. The fifth round had a stoppage. The bolt did not go all the way home and the round was not all the way in the chamber. The mag was empty, so I removed it. I pull out pocket knife and attempt to pry the round out, but no joy. I noticed a piece of "foreign material" lodged between the rear of the cartridge and the back edge of the chamber. Tried to pry out the foreign material, no joy.
Did RTB.
Could not separate upper from lower even after removing both front and rear pins as bcg still too far back in the buffer tube. Got screw driver and jostled the cartridge and foreign material and eventually the f.m. fell out. Then when I pushed on the front of the cartridge with cleaning rod through the front of barrel, the cartridge fell out easily.
Took everything apart. There was a tiny amount of brass shavings in the extractor cave, but that is fairly normal. There is a small scratch on the left side feed ramp. I cleaned around the rear of the lugs with a dental pic and there was a small amount of gunk.
History of this rifle:
Purchased about a month ago by me, from a person on the Kansas gun forum I frequent. I had never fired it before today, due to collar bone injury reducing my shooting schedule.
Per the guy I bought it from, he purchased it from another forum member, who is a MOD on the forum and is fairly well known, the first guy built the rifle, the guy I bought it from made no mods. The upper is COLT, the barrel and bolt are Larue, the BCG is BCM. The lower he sold with it is Spikes and I moved that over to my 5.56(14.5) due to it having carbine length buffer/stock. I moved the UT Arms lower over from the 5.56(14.5) to the 5.56(18) as it has not given any problems with the 5.56(14.5) BCM upper for the past year (about 800 rds down range). I have only been shooting three types of 5.56, Federal Lake City (FLC) 62gr, FLC 55gr and BH77 (Black Hill SMK 77gr). I was shooting BH77gr out of the 5.56(18). Guy I bought it from stated he had about 140rds through it. He stated reason for selling was that he wanted a heavier barrel. I wanted a light barrel, so it seemed to make sense.
So could switching the lowers matter?
I don't see how, but for testing, I will switch them back and see if it matters.
Could the foreign material (f.m.) have already been inside the upper? The round that came out doesn't seem to have a chunk of metal missing. The f.m. seems to be a piece of a copper jacketed bullet. Where did it come from? Did it come from one of the previous 4 rounds I had just fired?
The feed ramps to do not damaged, other than minor scratch. There are no "pock" marks on the feed ramps.
I have fired a total of 11 + 4 rounds through the rifle. In the 11 round batch there were 2 feed issues. The bolt did not go all the way home. I hand feed those two cartridges and they worked fine. The 16th round had the level-4 stoppage and that's where I am.
I will first test with the lower that was on that rifle and report back. Any thoughts welcome.
I guess my concern is that the BCG being BCM and the barrel, lugs and bolt being Larue might somehow not be matching up. If that is the case, I might be hosed. Maybe another possibility is that the lugs and bolt just aren't matched up from a CW/CCW perspective and that should be fixable.
More testing will give more data.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
ok, update on testing.
Re-assembled 5.56(18) ... used Spikes lower gun came with.
5 rds, no issues, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.
switched to UT Arms lower I've been using with BCM upper for past 14 months.
5 rds, bang
after 1st bang, bullet went down range, brass ejected, bolt went forward, pulled trigger "click", locked bolt to rear, no round in chamber. All 4 rounds are still in magazine.
Re seated magazine. Decided I would focus on pulling trigger all the way to the rear and holding it to the rear before pulling trigger a second, third, forth time.
Did exactly that, bang, bang, bang, bang, no issues.
So with this lower/upper Joe has to pull the trigger all the way to the rear and hold. No "super-light" trigger finger.
UT Arms lower has timney trigger, spikes lower has something else.
Will test again with UTA lower shortly.
Re-assembled 5.56(18) ... used Spikes lower gun came with.
5 rds, no issues, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.
switched to UT Arms lower I've been using with BCM upper for past 14 months.
5 rds, bang
after 1st bang, bullet went down range, brass ejected, bolt went forward, pulled trigger "click", locked bolt to rear, no round in chamber. All 4 rounds are still in magazine.
Re seated magazine. Decided I would focus on pulling trigger all the way to the rear and holding it to the rear before pulling trigger a second, third, forth time.
Did exactly that, bang, bang, bang, bang, no issues.
So with this lower/upper Joe has to pull the trigger all the way to the rear and hold. No "super-light" trigger finger.
UT Arms lower has timney trigger, spikes lower has something else.
Will test again with UTA lower shortly.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
2015-08-11
1500-1600
80F
05 MPH NNE
Activity: Continuing to test 5.56 (18). Using Spike's lower that came with rifle, fired 2 rds at 50yds got 9 and 10 ring. I actually fired these prone, bones only as I had forgotten to bring either stick or sling.
Went to 100yds, first round fired went down range, 9 ring a little low and left, had fail to feed. This was same case as previous with brass ejected, but next round unable to load completely into chamber due to foreign material. This time I was able to clear stoppage quickly. Removed magazine, locked bolt to rear, same we had same scenario as before. Took out pocket knife, jostled the foreign material until it dropped into waiting hand below. Pocketed f.m. and knife. Then shook round out of chamber into hand and pocketed that. Then loaded new mag and fired 5 rounds remembering to pull trigger all the way to the rear. 5 rounds were 10+9+9+9+8 high and centered. I was shooting off buggy as I could not see the target from the ground at 100yds.
So two cases, of primer popping out of round and stopping next round from loading. Has anyone ever heard of this before?
Now this has happened with both lowers I've tried. My UT Arms lower with timney trigger and this spikes lower the gun cam with. So tenatively ruling out lower as the issue. I'm shooting Black Hill's 77gr SMK, which for me is the ammo I want to shoot out of this 5.56 (18) rifle and if the rifle won't shoot this ammo, then I need to fix the rifle!
I will test some more and I will try to remember to pull trigger all the way to the rear. New shipment of xm193 arriving today, so I will try some of that also, but this rifle needs to be able to shoot BH77!
1500-1600
80F
05 MPH NNE
Activity: Continuing to test 5.56 (18). Using Spike's lower that came with rifle, fired 2 rds at 50yds got 9 and 10 ring. I actually fired these prone, bones only as I had forgotten to bring either stick or sling.
Went to 100yds, first round fired went down range, 9 ring a little low and left, had fail to feed. This was same case as previous with brass ejected, but next round unable to load completely into chamber due to foreign material. This time I was able to clear stoppage quickly. Removed magazine, locked bolt to rear, same we had same scenario as before. Took out pocket knife, jostled the foreign material until it dropped into waiting hand below. Pocketed f.m. and knife. Then shook round out of chamber into hand and pocketed that. Then loaded new mag and fired 5 rounds remembering to pull trigger all the way to the rear. 5 rounds were 10+9+9+9+8 high and centered. I was shooting off buggy as I could not see the target from the ground at 100yds.
So two cases, of primer popping out of round and stopping next round from loading. Has anyone ever heard of this before?
Now this has happened with both lowers I've tried. My UT Arms lower with timney trigger and this spikes lower the gun cam with. So tenatively ruling out lower as the issue. I'm shooting Black Hill's 77gr SMK, which for me is the ammo I want to shoot out of this 5.56 (18) rifle and if the rifle won't shoot this ammo, then I need to fix the rifle!
I will test some more and I will try to remember to pull trigger all the way to the rear. New shipment of xm193 arriving today, so I will try some of that also, but this rifle needs to be able to shoot BH77!
Ratdog68
LSB Official Story Teller
LSB TURKEY BUZZARD PRESERVATION SOCIETY
SUS VENATOR CLUB
LoneStarBoars Supporter
I'm assuming these are factory loads. Question being, is Black Hills using new brass, or reloading used brass for these? If the former, are you using 5.56 ammo in a .223 Rem. chamber? If the latter, then did they just get a batch of used brass that the primer pockets have just loosened up?
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
Thanks for the response!
AFAIK Black Hill's only does "factory loads". They do "factory new" with new brass and "factory loads" with "remanufactured" brass. All my boxes say "Factory New". I buy the BH77 in "Batches of 200rds a piece and have not had a problem until now, not saying it is the ammo, but the ammo is involved in a problem situation. The headstamps on the brass say "NCC".
This is a Larue PredatAR 5.56 barrel/chamber.
Once new shipment of FLC XM193 55gr arrives today, I can switch and try testing with that ammo.
Also there is some of this box (they come in boxes of 50) left, so I can try shooting that out of 5.56 (14.5) to see if I can generate any issues. I've shot about 200rds of BH77 out of the 14.5 over past year and have not had an issue. I did have issue shooting SSA 77gr SMK out of the 14.5 got heavily dimpled primers with no bang, I guess that setup wasn't hitting the primer hard enough. The BH77 has never had an issue in the 5.56 (14.5).
AFAIK Black Hill's only does "factory loads". They do "factory new" with new brass and "factory loads" with "remanufactured" brass. All my boxes say "Factory New". I buy the BH77 in "Batches of 200rds a piece and have not had a problem until now, not saying it is the ammo, but the ammo is involved in a problem situation. The headstamps on the brass say "NCC".
This is a Larue PredatAR 5.56 barrel/chamber.
Once new shipment of FLC XM193 55gr arrives today, I can switch and try testing with that ammo.
Also there is some of this box (they come in boxes of 50) left, so I can try shooting that out of 5.56 (14.5) to see if I can generate any issues. I've shot about 200rds of BH77 out of the 14.5 over past year and have not had an issue. I did have issue shooting SSA 77gr SMK out of the 14.5 got heavily dimpled primers with no bang, I guess that setup wasn't hitting the primer hard enough. The BH77 has never had an issue in the 5.56 (14.5).
Ratdog68
LSB Official Story Teller
LSB TURKEY BUZZARD PRESERVATION SOCIETY
SUS VENATOR CLUB
LoneStarBoars Supporter
Ok, it's not a .223 barrel/5.56ammo (over pressure) issue. It sounds like this is not new ammo for your weapon. Problem is sporadic in nature... I'd check on whether a problem has been reported concerning the lot number of your stock of ammo. Sounds like Black Hills may have gotten a bum batch of brass? Their ammo is generally accepted as GOOD stuff.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
Thanks for the responses!
==
Just to be clear I have two 5.56 rifles.
One is 5.56 (14.5) I have had for 15 months. I have about 800rds through it, FLC XM193 55 gr mostly, with some FLC XM855 62gr and exactly 149rds of BH77gr. Never had a problem in that rifle with any of those rounds. Did try some SSA 77gr when I couldn't get BH77gr and primers were too hard for the rifle, so gave those to friend and have been shooting the above three types ever since with no issues.
This rifle is BCM upper with DD rails and UT Arms (Kansas) lower with timney trigger, so not "milspec" on the trigger. I was unable to use this lower with .22LR upper as there were issues (inadvertant bump fire), so got a milspec lower (SA15) and have not had many cycling problems with the .22LR since.
Other is new (to me) 5.56 (18) I got a month ago and had not shot it until a couple of days ago (as reported here) due to breaking collar bone about the time I got this rifle.
It is Larue Barrel and bolt. BCM bcg, colt upper, spikes lower with "JP Yellow springs" on the trigger. The only change I made was to remove the muzzle break and add a SPW5.56 flash hider.
I have bought 4 batches of 200rds of BH77, 149 were fired through the 5.56(14.5) with no issues over the past year. 39 have been fired through the 5.56(18) in the past couple of days, there are 12 left from that batch. I will fire six each through the 5.56(14.5) and 5.56(18) remembering to pull trigger all the way to the rear and see if I can generate any issues.
Then I will break open new box from next batch of 200rds BH77 (boxes of 50) and try 25 each through the two rifles to see if I can generate any issues. Then I'll report back. By that point, my next batch of 400yds of FLC XM193 55gr should arrive and I can try testing with that.
==
Just to be clear I have two 5.56 rifles.
One is 5.56 (14.5) I have had for 15 months. I have about 800rds through it, FLC XM193 55 gr mostly, with some FLC XM855 62gr and exactly 149rds of BH77gr. Never had a problem in that rifle with any of those rounds. Did try some SSA 77gr when I couldn't get BH77gr and primers were too hard for the rifle, so gave those to friend and have been shooting the above three types ever since with no issues.
This rifle is BCM upper with DD rails and UT Arms (Kansas) lower with timney trigger, so not "milspec" on the trigger. I was unable to use this lower with .22LR upper as there were issues (inadvertant bump fire), so got a milspec lower (SA15) and have not had many cycling problems with the .22LR since.
Other is new (to me) 5.56 (18) I got a month ago and had not shot it until a couple of days ago (as reported here) due to breaking collar bone about the time I got this rifle.
It is Larue Barrel and bolt. BCM bcg, colt upper, spikes lower with "JP Yellow springs" on the trigger. The only change I made was to remove the muzzle break and add a SPW5.56 flash hider.
I have bought 4 batches of 200rds of BH77, 149 were fired through the 5.56(14.5) with no issues over the past year. 39 have been fired through the 5.56(18) in the past couple of days, there are 12 left from that batch. I will fire six each through the 5.56(14.5) and 5.56(18) remembering to pull trigger all the way to the rear and see if I can generate any issues.
Then I will break open new box from next batch of 200rds BH77 (boxes of 50) and try 25 each through the two rifles to see if I can generate any issues. Then I'll report back. By that point, my next batch of 400yds of FLC XM193 55gr should arrive and I can try testing with that.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
Update ... the bolt of the 5.56(18) was locked to the rear has after the fifth round existed the rifle yesterday the bolt locked to the rear and I left it that way.
I am going to wipe and lub both BCG before going out and doing the test. When I let the bolt go forward, I then pushed the rear retaining pin, opened the rifle and removed the changing handle and bcg and another primer dropped on the floor. There was no ammo in the rifle since yesterday, so that primer spent the night on the bolt face. So the last round of the last group of 5 had the primer stick on bolt face issue.
Hecque, I hope it is the ammo!
I am going to wipe and lub both BCG before going out and doing the test. When I let the bolt go forward, I then pushed the rear retaining pin, opened the rifle and removed the changing handle and bcg and another primer dropped on the floor. There was no ammo in the rifle since yesterday, so that primer spent the night on the bolt face. So the last round of the last group of 5 had the primer stick on bolt face issue.
Hecque, I hope it is the ammo!