Moving from NV to Thermal - Questions

[ATLSteve]

I have been hunting the last year (middle GA) with a ATN X-Sight and been "ok" satisfied, but really feel I am missing a lot of action due to IR bounce (looking for things moving / hiding behind brush and just getting the IR light bouncing from the leaves, etc..) and decided to move up to thermal. My buddy let me use his new ATN Thor-HD (1.25-5 384 model?) and while it worked, I was not impressed with the quality of the image, having to NUC with lens cover, etc..

Most of the time (85%) I hunt in a box blind with shots ranging from 15 yards - max 100 yards (depending on the opening of lanes, etc). The other 15% I hunt over large pastures where I can see 200-300 yards (possibly longer, but I wont shoot beyond 200 - unless it is a yote).

So with a pretty open budget (2k-7k) what would be the best setup?
Scope and handheld for scanning, just a scope, etc?
336 vs 640
color vs B/W options
larger lens for more detail or better Field of View

Models I am researching are:
Armasight Preditor 336 2-8 x 25
Armasight Zeus 336 2-8 x 42

Armasight Preditor 640 2-8 x 25
Armasight Zeus 640 2-8 x 42
Armasight Zeus Pro 640 2-8 x 50

IR Hunter Mark II

It seems the whole market is in store for some change with Armasight going to Flir, IRD going to Trijicon, and ATN moving to low cost parts and I of course want to protect my "investment" and getting good image / target identification balance.

 

[scrmblr1982cj8]

Welcome to LSB!

I would ask Brian Shaffer. He is wicked smart when it comes to the thermals. And eviscerating hogs with a sharp knife.

PS - ignore a guy named DJ. He means well, but...

 

[Taco]

Given your budget and noted disappointment with the 384 ATN, get a 640 scope and as much glass as you can afford. I suggest the 75mm Zeus. Things sometimes change; you get bored hunting one way, or new opportunities arise on different terrain. That scope can pretty well do it all and do it well. It's the one piece of kit I own that I am really totally satisfied with. No matter what new cores or new tech comes out, I know I'll always be able to identify and kill hogs and yotes at reasonable distances with that scope.

I bought a pulsar 38mm scanner and have been happy with it. It's a nice scanner. The problem is that I am spoiled and lazy. I honestly get tired of going from scanner to rifle to positively ID or at least better ID critters. Yeah, I know that's pathetic. The point is that if could do it again id have bought a 640 scanner probably with more glass.

 

[Brian Shaffer]

LOL, we all have opinions and differing opinions may be equally valid depending on perspective, but THANKS!

Given your choices, I would stay away from the Armasight Predator. You don't need an Armasight Zeus Pro line scope either, IMHO.

I think the IR Hunter MKII 2.5x 35mm. would be a good choice and I think the Armasight Zeus 2-8 640 would be a good choice ... both for getting the best image and still being able to be out beyond 100 yards easy enough. I own a Zeus 2, Zeus 3, and do own a IRH MKIII 4.5x. Each scope line has advantages and drawbacks.

15 yards is awfully close. With the Zeus units, you will be adjusting focus to see that close clearly. No focus on the IRH, but it won't appear to be quite as in focus as the Zeus at times, particularly closer.

If you want to save money (as these are a big investment), for your needs, I think you could certainly work well with a 336 Zeus or even a Pulsar 384 resolution Pulsar Apex XD50 2x scope.

If I was in your shoes, I would probably go with the IRH MKII in 2.5x 35mm, today. It will do what you need and allow you to do a lot more. It won't break the bank. It is a fairly easy to learn to use scope and fairly easy to use in the field. I think the Zeus 2 640 would do a good job for you as well.

Thermal is pricey. Prices are apt to change. With Trijicon buying IRD and Flir buying Armasight, the competition in the market will narrow. That can't be good for prices which may go up as a result. However, new offerings will drive prices down on "obsolete" older units. So if you are doing this with the idea of reselling in the future and getting your money back from your investment, this may not be the route to go. 15 years ago, a 320 resolution raytheon W1000 sold for $35000. When I bought my original Zeus 3, it was several thousand dollars less than the year before I bought it and so I was able to get a 640 core scope instead of a 336 core scope. Basically, I paid just a few hundred more for a 640 Zeus than what I had purchased a 320/336(?) ATN Thor scope for just the year before.

I think of thermal scopes like buying cars. I don't worry about the value after the purchase. I try to buy quality gear that will work for me and then I use it. I assume that I will not get my money back and don't worry about it. What matters is that the product works for my needs. If it does and I didn't pay too much for it at the time when I was buying, then I got a good value and that is what matters.

Taco brings up a good point. With your budget, you can afford a rifle scope and have enough left over for something like a Puslar Quantum for scanning.

If you figure out one or two scopes you might be interested in, give ******** (aka Big Red Dog here on LSB) a call. He is a dealer.

 

[ATLSteve]

Thanks for the input guys...
Wouldn't the 75mm lens make the field of view very narrow for some close up shots? I would say 60% of my shots are under 40 yards in heavy brush..

 

[rgilbert]

I'm currently running the xd75 Pulsar. I have no problem at forty yards and closer. It's the magnification that will kill you for close shots. I agree with Brian either the IRD MKII 2.5 or the Zuess 2.5 should fit your bill and budget. Another cool factor is being able to locate your hogs after the shot if you hunt in brush.

Check with Cliff at ******************* to see what he can do for you price wise and what he has in stock.

 

[Taco]

Thanks for the input guys...
Wouldn't the 75mm lens make the field of view very narrow for some close up shots? I would say 60% of my shots are under 40 yards in heavy brush..

The more you reveal about how you hunt the better we're able to respond. That's a lot of close up shooting. Yeah the 75 may hurt you a bit there. I've never looked through a 384 ATN, but I can't imagine the image would be blown away by a 336 armasight. That's why I suggest a 640 scope. The 640 42mm is something you should investigate. Maybe even the Reap-IR that I've gotten interested in. You'd spend all of your budget but you've potentially have a scanner, scope, and clip on in one package.

 

[ATLSteve]

I just left them a message

Thanks to all!

 

[Jake]

I run the Apex xd50a and I think it would work great for you. I can focus it clearly on dead hogs at 10 yards but can easily ID animals at 300 yards by image, much further by behavior. ******** will give you the best price and you will have plenty left over for a scanner. The scanner has been a game changer for me and I only have the Quantum hd19a. It spots fine but I have to transition to the rifle to get a positive ID over say 125 yards.

 

[JPK]

I have an IRD MK II 2.5x 35mm and an XD 50 Pulsar, which is 2x at the lower end of digital zoom, I have had an IRD 300 Patrol which is 1.2 or so at the low end of digital zoom.

The IRD MK II seems to be a perfect fit for your needs, imo.

I also have a Pulsar 19A spotter, but for your use would recommend the 38.

The IRD REAP-IR would be an even better unit, but it isn't worth the price difference, imo.

Likewise, the 250 Patrol would be a better spotter, but not worth the higher price.

Hope this helps,

JPK

 

[JPK]

Btw, thought that I'd mention that even with Gen 3 night vision compared to thermal, you would be missing about 60 - 75% of the critters out there. Step down to digital NV and you are missing more.

I have both Gen 3 and thermal and there is a case for both, but spotting and ID'ing critters is best done with a 640 thermal in most circumstances, IMO. (Despite the BS you read from Gen 3 NV fanatics.)

JPK

 

[Taco]

I'd have a hard time trying to justify the extra $1,000 that the mark 2 35mm costs over the Zeus 640 42mm.

 

[JPK]

I think a side by side comparison would solve that concern. ******** could set that up. My $'s are on the IRD.

Btw, I compared a 3x 75mm Zeus to the 35mm MK II side by side and the difference in performance was significant, with the MK II turning in the better performance. However, Zeus software has been improved since then, I am told.

JPK

 

[ATLSteve]

Quick follow-up..
After a short, but very good conversation with Cliff (very nice, knowledgeable person), looking at some other models (and many calls to other places) I ended up going with the IR Defense REAP-IR unit.

Though I was planning on doing more research on the options, I was offered an extremely good price that I could not pass up on, was within my budget. There was more than enough left over to also order an extended battery pack also...

Without ever seeing one, I pray it is all they claim to be, and the wife doesn't make me sleep out in the blind for the coming winter....

 

[Brian Shaffer]

Woohoo!

 

[Oso Grande]

agreed.... woohoo!!

 

[Terry]

I've been using the ReapIR 90% of the time last few months. It has caused me a issue in the fact I now want to sale my other thermal scopes and buy more ReapIR's!

 

[Chopperdrvr]

Are you sure sleeping in the blind would be a bad thing?

 

[Oso Grande]

Are you sure sleeping in the blind would be a bad thing?

Don't we all sleep in the blind occasionally already?

 

[JPK]

Quick follow-up..
After a short, but very good conversation with Cliff (very nice, knowledgeable person), looking at some other models (and many calls to other places) I ended up going with the IR Defense REAP-IR unit.

Though I was planning on doing more research on the options, I was offered an extremely good price that I could not pass up on, was within my budget. There was more than enough left over to also order an extended battery pack also...

Without ever seeing one, I pray it is all they claim to be, and the wife doesn't make me sleep out in the blind for the coming winter....

I am envious!

I may have to add a REAP-IR. How much room in that blind?

JPK