Best hunting setup.

[JeremyV]

So as you all know I just ordered my first thermal and am trying to distract myself while waiting for it to get here. I have been doing a lot of research and find that some people say use thermal to find the animal then ID with gen3 nightvision and engage with the nightvision.

Others say to use thermal to engage and use nightvision to identify. Wanted to have a pole here and see what you all have found most effective. I'm guessing haveing two thermals and a gen3 monocular or binocular would be the most ideal but lets see what you experienced guys have to say.

 

[JPK]

As I wrote in the other thread, ID via thermal is often more sure and much quicker than through NV.

Those (few) who say you need NV to ID either have no experience with good thermals or are hawking NV, like Victor and ****, or bought and paid for SkyPUp.

I think you will he surprised about how quickly your NV becomes superfluous (except for navigation) once you get thermal.

JPK

 

[JeremyV]

As I wrote in the other thread, ID via thermal is often more sure and much quicker than through NV.

Those (few) who say you need NV to ID either have no experience with good thermals or are hawking NV, like Victor and ****, or bought and paid for SkyPUp.

I think you will he surprised about how quickly your NV becomes superfluous (except for navigation) once you get thermal.

JPK

I have a thermal camera I use for work however it is very low resolution and I can see how if that's all you used then you would need nightvision to id however if you only use gen1 nightvision then you might need a flashlight to id lol

 

[fanninland]

I voted thermal scope/thermal spotter but a more accurate addition would be gen3 for navigation (and then mount the gen3 on second rifle w/Eotech for son/buddy use). After using my thermal weapon sight my son and even my free loading friends are begging for a second thermal sighted rifle - it's so much better than a gen3 sighted rifle, at least for shooting pigs.

That being said, gen3 is still an integral tool in the toolbox particularly for navigating since you can use it inside a vehicle (through windshield), unlike thermal. Also, shooting my G20/RMR with helmet mounted gen3 is awesome. Just my dos pesos - to each his own!

ETA: Welcome to the forum Jeremy. Enjoyed your shooting video - that was impressive, no way I could do that.

 

[JeremyV]

I would think that engagement of moving targets would be a lot better with thermal cause it would be much harder to lose track of the animal.

From you experienced guys do you think it's worth the money to get a high resolution thermal spotter or just get a lower end one that will show me heat then use my zeus 640 to identify?

 

[JPK]

If the budget allows, a high resolution spotter is the way to go. You will see more, further and be able to pick living creatures' returns out of tree lines and other mixed signature/mixed cover situations.

An analogy might be trying to pick pieces of deer or hogs out of brush with crappy binos vs. good binos. With the low resolution spotter it can be difficult to distinguish the heat return from a piece of tree trunk visible through brush vs a piece of a deer or other creature. One of my two frequent night hunting buds loves to trade and swap NV and thermals and almost always has a good 640 scanner. What he can pick out of tree lines, as an example, compared to me using my current spotter, a Pulsar HD 19A with ~388 resolution and a smaller lens, is significant. Out in the open he can spot and ID further, but the difference isn't all that significant.

One of the reasons I'm jonesing for a REAP-IR is so that when I'm not hunting with my son or a bud without thermal I can use it as a scanner. I really miss my Patrol which filled that role.

However, if the budget is tight, any spotter is better than no spotter. And taking a confirmation/ID look through your scope works fine.

JPK

 

[ZenArchery]

Once you go thermal. It's difficult to use other items. I started with an old ATN 450 Gen 1 Scope.

 

[JeremyV]

Once you go thermal. It's difficult to use other items. I started with an old ATN 450 Gen 1 Scope.

How long ago was your gen1 days?

I had a cheap gen one and gave up on nightvision for awhile then got a an/pvs4 gen 2 and an IR illuminator then got my first monocular the Armasight spark core
Then one of the first x-sight sent it back fifth away. Then got a pvs14 autogated and can't believe the difference. Now i can't wait for my thermal scope to arrive.

 

[djones]

surly it must have a lot has to do with your style of hunting and cover conditions. if you’re sitting in a blind sniping a hog off a feeder, any decent night vision weapon sight will do. most of my hunting is driving fields, so the pvs14 is hard to beat for looking through the windshield. I would like a thermal spotter but cant decide if I want one around 1x to 1.5x or one 3x to 4x. I’m used to scanning with the 3.x scope, but even at 640 sometimes animal types are hard to distinguish. if I can’t make them out at 6x/320 then I’m not going to tell at 12x or 24x with the image degradation.

a 1x spotter would be handy for finding downed game in grass or cover. I’ve tried with the 3x scope and it’s too much. I think I would still be grabbing the scope for spotting if/when the 1x spotter wasn’t enough for observation. I just don’t know if I’d be happy bumping it up to 2x at 320 to id an animal. since I’m already used to using the scope for double duty, and I'm not sure what I want, I haven’t been to anxious to drop the coin on a thermal spotter yet.

as a final note, a 4x or 6x gen 3 nv scope doesn’t give up anything to thermal in a peanut field the week of the full moon.

 

[JeremyV]

surly it must have a lot has to do with your style of hunting and cover conditions. if you’re sitting in a blind sniping a hog off a feeder, any decent night vision weapon sight will do. most of my hunting is driving fields, so the pvs14 is hard to beat for looking through the windshield. I would like a thermal spotter but cant decide if I want one around 1x to 1.5x or one 3x to 4x. I’m used to scanning with the 3.x scope, but even at 640 sometimes animal types are hard to distinguish. if I can’t make them out at 6x/320 then I’m not going to tell at 12x or 24x with the image degradation.

a 1x spotter would be handy for finding downed game in grass or cover. I’ve tried with the 3x scope and it’s too much. I think I would still be grabbing the scope for spotting if/when the 1x spotter wasn’t enough for observation. I just don’t know if I’d be happy bumping it up to 2x at 320 to id an animal. since I’m already used to using the scope for double duty, and I'm not sure what I want, I haven’t been to anxious to drop the coin on a thermal spotter yet.

as a final note, a 4x or 6x gen 3 nv scope doesn’t give up anything to thermal in a peanut field the week of the full moon.

Gen3 in open fields is like shooting in the daytime so I would agree that either thermal or gen3 would be just fine there. Heck even a good digital scope would work fine for that. I notice that whenever I'm in bush or deeper grass that my nightvision fails me if it's too dark and I need IR light. I can't see through anything at that point.

I'm thinking this is where thermal is really going to shine also spotting game in deeper grass where they blend in. And in the shadows.

If money was no object I think a pair of thermal binoculars would be sweet but who knows.

 

[JPK]

Jeremy, I have found that with a PVS 14 you sometimes don't realize how tall the grass or crops are. Same with thermal too, in fact it is more difficult to distinguish lower from taller grass or crops with thermal, but when you see backs of critters you get the clue needed to realize that the crops or grass are taller than you thought. In that situation it is unlikely you would spot the critters at all relying on NV of you're on the move. Different if that's the field your stand is overlooking, when you will eventually spot some motion.

On thermal spotters, here are a couple of observations for thought, pretty obvious but sometimes overlooked.

1. If resolution is high native magnification can be lower, if resolution is lower native magnification ought to be higher. Native magnification does make up for lesser resolution to a degree. But see #3 below.
2. If your scope is high resolution you can get by well with a lower resolution spotter, and vice versa. But if one isn't high resolution there will be a lot more situations where making positive ID is delayed, especially as range increases.
3. FOV is really important, and the more the better, but then see #1 above.

Some of my night hunting involves big fields and longer ranges, some involves tighter fields, some mixed cover or in the woods. I'm using a Pulsar XD 19A as I noted above. I really, really miss my Patrol for the purpose, which offered nearly the same field of view and native magnification but higher resolution. I choke on the idea of spending a lot of money on a non weapon sight, dedicated thermal spotter though. I know some native magnification would improve spotting on open ground since my "spare" thermal scope is a Pulsar XD 50S which though a scope with a better screen, bigger lens and 2x native magnification, has the same guts as the 19A, and I can see more critters at greater ranges and make faster more sure ID with the 50S than the 19A. I think the varied terrain I hunt favors a wide FOV though, and I can live with having to swap to my IRD 2.45x native magnification MK II for ID at longer ranges.

If bigger fields were a greater majority of the terrain I hunt I think a Pulsar XD 38 spotter might be a better choice.

JPK

 

[JeremyV]

So around where I live the fields are not too big a really long shot would be 250 yards. So on a budget what spotter would you get?

 

[JPK]

The areas I hunt vary, as I wrote. And sometimes we're scanning over ground where the next tree line is a mile distant or or more. If that mile distant tree line doesn't often describe your terrain the Pulsar Quantum XD 19A makes a fine budget spotter, and it can be helmet mounted if that interests you. Current street price is about $1,950 or so. You don't often find them for sale second hand because currently they are the best bang for the buck for budget spotters. Resolution is ~388, iirc.

You will eventually want to tamp down the brightness of the 19A. I did this by putting a 9f stop filter in a Butler Creek cap over the ocular, and using marine adhesive to keep the BC in place. Works well so far. In the thread on IR driving lights OsaGrande identifies a film that would do the job for less $'s and could be used on a clear scope flip scope cap

Leupold is coming out with a spotter with 200 resolution called the Tracker. It is a nice compact package about the size of half a Leopold 2.5x8 scope as far as I can tell. Leupold is marketing it for finding downed game, and it will certainly be useful for that. They are not available yet and expected to hit distributors about the end of November. I have one reserved as a Christmas gift for my son. MAP pricing is $875, iirc, but I think online pricing will be about $600 after its been available for a few months. Because I know that any thermal spotter is better than no thermal spotter, especially when couple with a thermal scope, I think it will be fine for spotting and even IDing in closer range settings. 200 resolution is about equal to my 19A at 2x digital zoom and having experience with that I'm pretty confident the Tracker will do a decent job, especially for the price (but remember my comment re how magnification is helpful. The Tracker is about 1x whereas I'm comparing the Pulsar's resolution at 2x.) I will post a review on how the Tracker performs, and suggest waiting until then to make a purchase. If the Tracker works as well as I hope it will make a good budget spotter for closer range settings at about a third the cost of the Pulsar.

JPK

 

[JeremyV]

I've seen the adds for the Leupold unit definitely interested to see how it stacks up. The new seek thermal revealpro looks interesting it's got a 320x240 core and I think 30hz the only issue I see is that you would need a loop like they sell for digital cameras so you can hold it up to your eye and see the screen. They block out sunlight. I use one on my IR DSLR camera for filming at night. So that no light shines off the camera screen.
I'm probably getting one for work anyway so might see how it does on game.. it's a super small lense though so probably not good for very long range.

 

[JPK]

It's the format that sinks the Seek for me and makes the Leupold attractive. But the Seek 320 version would be better than nothing. With the Leupold, I'm thinking slap a Butler Creek over the ocular, with a neutral filter to tamp down brightness if required, and throw it in a pocket when you aren't using it.

JPK

 

[djones]

...I'm thinking this is where thermal is really going to shine also spotting game in deeper grass where they blend in. And in the shadows...

there is a field i hunt regularly when there's milo in it. never seen hogs in the milo, just on the edge. when i got the thermal scope i couldn't believe what i'd been missing. i could see the heads and the back on the bigger ones. it gave me good cover to walk up on them too. killing was good for a long while there.

i don't remember if i posted this vid. maybe not since i didn't find any of the hogs. but it gives you a pretty good idea of just how much of an advantage the thermal gives you. i couldn't see any of them with the pvs14. they are in cotton.

 

[JPK]

That video shows exactly the situation I was trying to describe where with a PVS 14 or other NV you don't even realize critters are there, but with thermal you pick up their backs. The more so when scanning longer distances where an area might have taller grass or crops than you realize.

I have also found milo to be challenging with NV. With the varied height of the heads and leaves it hides critters well. But thermal picks out the returns no problem, and eventually a critter will lift its head for ID.

JPK

 

[Ncorry]

Wow, that video really hits the nail. After I got over the ATN gen 1 scopes (and I used them a lot out of fixed stands) and got a 14 wiht a helmet set up. Then added another 14 and another helmet cause I got lonely running around at night by myself. Then an ATN Thor 320 2x. Traded it off for a Zeus 640 3x. Quickly realized that the pair of 14s started being left in the truck, then started being left in the safe. Traded one off for a Pulsar HD38A 320 2x spotter. The helmet rig is useful with the 14 but I usually roll with the Pulsar and Zeus. Oh, and a handheld spotter also works great for day time deer hunting. I keep being amazed at the stuff I miss while spotting with binos for an hour and then try the Puslar.

 

[JeremyV]

That video was perfect!
My wife was 100% on board for me getting the Zeus 640 and now even before it's arrived I need a thermal spotter.... You guys suck...

 

[JPK]

Wow, that video really hits the nail. After I got over the ATN gen 1 scopes (and I used them a lot out of fixed stands) and got a 14 wiht a helmet set up. Then added another 14 and another helmet cause I got lonely running around at night by myself. Then an ATN Thor 320 2x. Traded it off for a Zeus 640 3x. Quickly realized that the pair of 14s started being left in the truck, then started being left in the safe. Traded one off for a Pulsar HD38A 320 2x spotter. The helmet rig is useful with the 14 but I usually roll with the Pulsar and Zeus. Oh, and a handheld spotter also works great for day time deer hunting. I keep being amazed at the stuff I miss while spotting with binos for an hour and then try the Puslar.

Pretty similar experiences. I still have two PVS 14's, but if they get used its more often on back up rifles so I can loan one to a landowner or extra hunting bud. I have two primary night hunting buds, one is fully NV and thermal equipped, the other can't afford it right now and uses my son's set up if he isn't hunting with us, a NV equipped rifle if he is. I have been debating trading out my two PVS 14's and Pulsar HD 50S, which is the second to my MK II, for an Envis to maintain some NV for navigation and a REAP-IR. But every time I turn on the HD 50S I am re-impressed and re- realize it really is all the scope any hunter needs. I use a 19A for a spotter currently.

BTW if you need to press a third rifle into service, a PVS 14 on a rifle with a USGI 3x magnifier, no red dot or EOTech but an IR laser makes for a very decent rig. The two rifles I can press into service have have QD mounts for the red dot and EOTech respectively, and I cowitness the laser to them, then take off the red dot/EOTech and screw on the 3x. I'm using LaserMax IR lasers, and they are fine for the purpose. I mount them in front of the forward BUIS, which gives them some protection from being bumped on in the field or in the case.

Something Jeremy hasn't read yet on LSBs that bears mentioning is that it isn't unusual for the smoke from firing a shot to blind NV until the shooter moves or wind does the trick, and its a given if IR light is being used. Doesn't make that big of a deal shooting single critters, but when there are more than one target it sure does. I'm not sure if it would be an issue using a helmet mount and laser though.

JPK