.223/Hornet?

[histopicker]

I am going to try some reduced velocity loads for my .223 bolt gun. I am doing this in an attempt to save fur on fox and bobcat. Normal velocity's from the .223 can and will blow up the small critters so here is what I am going to do.
10gr Bluedot with a Hornady 40gr V-MAX. should produce 2200 - 2400fps out of my 24" barrel.
Any comments?

 

[pruhdlr]

I dabbled with this while in Maine,hunting these critters. The fox we had up there were red fox which are somewhat bigger than a gray fox. BUT......a fox(any fox)ain't got much meat on him for bullet expansion. Even the bigger bobcats are pretty thin.(I killed some that were 45+ pounds in Maine)

I had a 20" Savage 110FP chambered in 223Rem. This was back before the coming of Trail Boss .....however ..... IIRC I ended up shooting a 40gr NosBalTip a bit UNDER 2000 using some "exotic" pistol powder. NO GOOD....the bullet would fail to meet it's minimum expansion threshold and come out the far side. If it struck bone (rib or shoulder)on the way out I could kiss my $30-$100 for the pelt,goodbye. I had better "pelt saving" performance with a 40gr going 3600fps+ out of my 24" AR.

I have no experience with this in the recent years...BUT...I would think that the lightest bullet,driven at the highest speed possible,put square on the shoulder,could work. Maybe one of the powdered metal make-ups if they come in .224".

Better yet -----> Yeah,I know <----- a 17HMR -----OR-----the newish 17 Hornet- --- pruhdlr

 

[histopicker]

I wish my budget would allow for a new rifle but it will not.
2400fps will be in the working range of this bullet out to at least 150 - 200 yards. I can't see further than that anyway.

 

[pruhdlr]

What does Hornady say is the minimum velocity for this bullet to open properly ?? When started at 2400fps what will the forward velocity be at 200yds ?? More important (IMO),what will the rotational velocity be ?? (MV X 720 divided by rate of twist) This is why I advocate the use of a 1:7 twist bbl over the rest.

Remember...the rotational velocity will slow down very little(IMO,not even enough to consider),however the forward velocity WILL. --- pruhdlr

 

[histopicker]

Hornady lists the minimum velocity at 2000fps. My rifle has a 1/12 twist which is more than adequate for this bullet. Starting at 2400-2500fps the bullet will retain enough velocity to function out to about 100 yards, a better choice might be the 35gr V-MAX as its minimum working velocity is 1500fps giving an additional 50 yards.
I do not figure rotational velocity as a factor with this load. Also actual target distances (grey fox/bobcat) will more than likely be engaged at <75 yards.

 

[pruhdlr]

I fully understand the twist rate vs the speed(actual length of bullet)thing. TRUE.....a 1:12 will stabilize a 40gr quite adequately.

BUT...what I was eluding to is the thing called centrifugal force. Here is the comparison --->
1:12 bbl @ 2450 ='s 147,000rpm
1:7 bbl @ 2450 ='s 252,000rpm

This is why I absolutely love the fast twist bbls. Tell ya the truth,I do not understand why they do not make ALL 223/5.56 bbls with at least a 1:9 twist rate. The 22-250's and 220Swift with a 1:11 would be absolutely grand. And the 308Win's with a 1:9 twist rate would be mo-bedda also.

I believe that the above difference in rotational velocity(105,000rpm)would help the varmint style or the powdered metal variety of bullets come apart much faster for your application. The chance for a pass thru on the thin skinned,smaller framed animals would become much less. After all....the bullets entrance or what it does inside the animal is nothing. It's when it comes out carrying bone frag with it that causes all the damage. --- pruhdlr

 

[histopicker]

You are correct on the damage part, pass through is what I am trying to reduce or eliminate. I am a believer in over stabilization resulting in a loss of accuracy but In my case it is a moot point as my old rifle was built with a 1/12 twist so that is what I have to work with.
My Armalite rifle has a 1/9 twist but I am almost certain this loading will not cycle the action on an AR.

 

[pruhdlr]

Just the opposite for me. I do not believe that there is a difference(all else being equal)in rotational velocity that will effect ACCURACY. A bullet spinning at 220,000rpm or a bullet spinning at 450,000rpm will have the same degree of accuracy. Especially if the bullet is built correctly,especially the bullets of the all copper make-up. If the bullet is not built correctly it will surely be found to be grossly inaccurate,even at the closer ranges,IMO. It will start losing accuracy as soon as it leaves the confines of the bbl.

I have shot bullets so fast as to have them come apart. But not before they hit a blade of grass. The instance that comes to mind is the older(early 80's)Hornady 50gr SX(.224") coming out of my 220Swift with a aftermarket 1:11 bbl. These bullets were also reported to come apart when shot out of the Ruger Mini-14's with a 1:10 bbl. I had a Mini back then,however I never gave them a try. --- pruhdlr

 

[Aspp]

histopicker, try a barnes varmint grenade in the 36gr flavor. I am having decent luck with them at 3990fps on yotes. If you tame that load back down around 2500-2600 it should do what you want. The other option would be to shoot a FMJ and sew up 2 small holes.

 

[Itsazonik]

I have always found the fmj bullets great for pass through on varmints. Less mess. As for twist rate, my 223 wylde works great in 1:8 twist but I really liked my 1:10 twist 223 barrel I had. Worked great with 40 and 55gr bullets at all speeds

 

[histopicker]

FMJ's I believe are illegal for hunting in Az. and Utah. I will have to recheck the laws but they were in the past. To bad I have a couple of thousand of them loaded up.
Why Utah and Arizona, I'm going home boys.

 

[Itsazonik]

i had almost 5000 .308 FMJ's and then i sold my last 30 cal. i sold them all with it. now i have to buy more bullets because of my 30 HRT

 

[histopicker]

i had almost 5000 .308 FMJ's and then i sold my last 30 cal. i sold them all with it. now i have to buy more bullets because of my 30 HRT

That kinda bites!

 

[Itsazonik]

its ok, i got a really good price for my whole 30-06 and bullet package

 

[Aspp]

FMJs are illegal to hunt with here too, but I don't see a difference in safety between them and a barnes or other monolithic bullet.

 

[histopicker]

I think it is not so much a safety issue as it is a wounding of animals issue. People insist on using fast twist rates that do not allow the fmj to tumble and break apart in target. this results in puncture wounds instead of fragmentation wounds. the 55grfmj used in the .223 was designed to be used with a 1/14 twist. The military found issues with it stabilizing in artic conditions so the M16 twist rate was tightened up to 1/12. The bullet was still effective but at shorter ranges. Now some advocate a twist rate as tight as 1/7. This was to stabilize the tracer rounds which had to be longer than a standard round. I digress. The fmj does not work correctly with to fast of a twist rate resulting in wounding more than killing.

 

[Itsazonik]

thats why i mainly shoot heavy bullets in my 1:8 223 wylde

 

[Aspp]

I think it is not so much a safety issue as it is a wounding of animals issue. People insist on using fast twist rates that do not allow the fmj to tumble and break apart in target. this results in puncture wounds instead of fragmentation wounds. the 55grfmj used in the .223 was designed to be used with a 1/14 twist. The military found issues with it stabilizing in artic conditions so the M16 twist rate was tightened up to 1/12. The bullet was still effective but at shorter ranges. Now some advocate a twist rate as tight as 1/7. This was to stabilize the tracer rounds which had to be longer than a standard round. I digress. The fmj does not work correctly with to fast of a twist rate resulting in wounding more than killing.

Very true, the whole reason that FMJs are not legal to hunt with here (according to several Commie F&G wardens) is because they over penetrate and ricochet easily, causing a hazard to other hunters/people and a fire hazard. I have yet to have one say they are not lethal enough. I wont argue that in a fast twist gun they don't destabilize to do their job, but you said your gun is a 1-12 twist so it should work fine. But if they are illegal then stay inside the law.

 

[histopicker]

I intend to . I already have a batch made up using 40gr V-Max bullets and 10gr of Blue Dot. They give 2750fps muzzle. should work fine.

 

[Aspp]

Good luck!!!