.208 amax subsonic for hogs?

TEXASLAWMAN

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I totally agree .... It's kinda like some people (actually) feel that the 6.8SPCII is a viable alternative to a (even) normally loaded 308Win.

I'm one of those people so what are you trying to say it's not?

I more than feel it, I know it from much experience in the field on live targets.

Based on your argument why don't you use a .22lr because a well placed ear hole hot with one will kill a hog I've done it.
 

pruhdlr

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Then TLM ..... based on YOUR argument,why don't you use a 300BLK over a 6.8,308,etc. Could be wrong but seems that a 300BLK down from a 6.8 makes a lot more sense than a 22LR down from a 300BLK.

Do we really need to work up some velocities and muzzle energies with most any given bullet and do the .277" hole vs .308" hole comparison ?? --- pruhdlr
 

TEXASLAWMAN

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Then TLM ..... based on YOUR argument,why don't you use a 300BLK over a 6.8,308,etc. Could be wrong but seems that a 300BLK down from a 6.8 makes a lot more sense than a 22LR down from a 300BLK.

Do we really need to work up some velocities and muzzle energies with most any given bullet and do the .277" hole vs .308" hole comparison ?? --- pruhdlr

Pruhdlr I think you may be confused here. You are the one arguing for using a lesser caliber because you take "well placed shots" I am the one arguing for the caliber that I can shoot a hog in the rear running away and still kill or at least disable him.

You can work up anything you wish sir. I have been fortunate enough in my career choice to play with lots of balistic gel and bullets which is great and very informative, but even with that info nothing beats shooting live targets almost every week.

I have every caliber listed here and have shot balistic gel, cars, windshields, body armor, and lots of hogs. Have used a variety of bullets and loads, from subsonic, to factory, to pushing the limit supersonic handloads. I bought the 300 blackout with high hopes and fell for the hysteria surrounding it. After using it super and subsonic it fell way short of my past results with the .308 and 6.8spc.

And that's why it sits in the safe I have better options. If you do not have better options it will work like stated many places at least its marginaly better than the 5.56. If you have better optiins but choose for what ever personal reasons to limit yourself as a challenge or whatever that is perfectly fine also. My concern is people leading new hunters down the wrong path.

Now if you have something productive to add then by all means do so. But keep your snide rice paper type comments to your self. And try to at least understand what side of the argument you are on next time.

Now keep this post on topic from here on out. The man asked about the 208 gr subsonic a max for hunting. I have used it it produces pencil sized 30 caliber holes with no hydrostatic shock. Ear hole shots are about the only good choice. If needed I can find the squirrel pictures where I shot several squirrels and they ran about 10-20 yards after being hit with the subsonic 208 a max also.
 

Taco

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They're isn't a factory 300blk sub that expands or demonstrates satisfactory performance, yet.


Lawman, do you shoot .308 much anymore? I'm moving my thermal scope from a 300blk to my 6.8.....but I'm considering a SCAR 17. Shot a boar last week with a .308 savage bolt gun and 168gr tap. It just totally crushed him. That power is tempting. But, to 200 yards probably the 6.8 will do nearly as well? No kills with the 6.8 yet.
 

TEXASLAWMAN

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They're isn't a factory 300blk sub that expands or demonstrates satisfactory performance, yet.


Lawman, do you shoot .308 much anymore? I'm moving my thermal scope from a 300blk to my 6.8.....but I'm considering a SCAR 17. Shot a boar last week with a .308 savage bolt gun and 168gr tap. It just totally crushed him. That power is tempting. But, to 200 yards probably the 6.8 will do nearly as well? No kills with the 6.8 yet.

The last 4-5 hunts I've been using only the REPR .308 and 165gr sst's but this weekend I'll be switching back to my Six8 have the Apollo pro 50mm again so want to get some video through it!

I have some prototype factory 308 bullets designed to expand subsonic that were developed for the blackout. I have been testing them on hogs for several months now. I am not allowed to say anymore than that. But I will say this even with expanding bullets you are shooting basically a 200 gr 9mm subsonic. For subsonic work the .45 acp or .44 special are way better choices. I can really see no reason to hunt subsonic unless you are doing eradication hunt in populated areas.

I will load up some SST's full power in the blackout and see how it does. Again it's the balistic twin the the 7.62x39 so it's a known killer the 6.8 and .308 just out shine it's performance.
 

Taco

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The last 4-5 hunts I've been using only the REPR .308 and 165gr sst's but this weekend I'll be switching back to my Six8 have the Apollo pro 50mm again so want to get some video through it!

I have some prototype factory 308 bullets designed to expand subsonic that were developed for the blackout. I have been testing them on hogs for several months now. I am not allowed to say anymore than that. But I will say this even with expanding bullets you are shooting basically a 200 gr 9mm subsonic. For subsonic work the .45 acp or .44 special are way better choices. I can really see no reason to hunt subsonic unless you are doing eradication hunt in populated areas.

I will load up some SST's full power in the blackout and see how it does. Again it's the balistic twin the the 7.62x39 so it's a known killer the 6.8 and .308 just out shine it's performance.

In your mind does the extra ballistic gain of the .308 justify the extra weight and non compatibility that you have with 6.8/5.56?
 

TEXASLAWMAN

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In your mind does the extra ballistic gain of the .308 justify the extra weight and non compatibility that you have with 6.8/5.56?

I switched from the .308 to the 6.8 for the lighter package and virtually no recoil. I still love the .308 but the 6.8 fills it's shoes nicely.
 

DaveABQ

Albuquerque, NM
I'll give a little of my thoughts here.

First off, subsonic. Even with bullets made to expand at subsonic speeds, a well placed shot is necessary, such as with the Outlaw bullets. At approximately 1050 fps, there is only going to be so much penetration with a bullet that is optimized for penetration and expansion. Hogs will drop in their tracks with a well placed shot in the neck or head.

As for supersonic speeds, the bigger the better. A .338 Lapua would work much better than a 5.56, 6.8, 300Blk or anything below it, but it is hard to shoot because of recoil and follow-up shots.

As for the 300 Blackout, surprisingly it isn't that much less powerful than a 6.8 in supersonic form. Some data from Wilson Combat:

Ballistic Performance Comparison7.62x40 WT (16” barrel)
110gr: 2534FPS Muzzle Velocity and 1569 Foot Pounds of Energy
125gr: 2463FPS Muzzle Velocity and 1684 Foot Pounds of Energy

5.56 Nato (16” barrel)
55gr: 3150FPS Muzzle Velocity and 1212 Foot Pounds of Energy
62gr: 3000FPS Muzzle Velocity and 1239 Foot Pounds of Energy
77gr: 2750FPS Muzzle Velocity and 1293 Foot Pounds of Energy

7.62x39 (16” barrel)
123gr: 2320FPS Muzzle Velocity and 1470 Foot Pounds of Energy

6.8 SPC (16” barrel)
110gr: 2550FPS Muzzle Velocity and 1594 Foot Pounds of Energy

300 BLACKOUT (16” barrel)
125gr: 2275FPS Muzzle Velocity and 1436 Foot Pounds of Energy

NOTE for Handloaders: Once a 7.62x40 WT case has been fired once it will be fire-formed and provide approx 1gr additional powder capacity and the potential for approx 25-50FPS more velocity at comparable pressure levels.

Now granted, this is a short list with average loads, and the 300BLK is only show using a 125gr bullet, whereas a 110gr bullet can be pushed in to the 2400+ fps range. I can push a 110gr bullet out of the 6.8 even faster than stated.

I've always made the argument that if you want a 300BLK, it should be used for subsonic use as there are much better options for supersonic use like the 6.8 and 7.62x40WT.

I own a few 7.62x40WT's and I'm not sponsored by WC or anything like that, yes I know Bill Wilson. But when I consider handloading, the 7.62x40WT used supersonic is a much more sensible option than the 300BLK. Case is still based on the 5.56 so cheap and easy to come by, forming the brass is a simple trim and run through a sizing die just like the 300BLK. But where the 7.62x40WT shines is that in my testing I can get close to 200 fps faster than a 300BLK, and nearly the same energy as a 6.8, so the benefit is that it is cheaper to use than the 6.8 (with certain stipulations identified below). Also, Barnes makes a 110gr TTSX bullet specifically for the 7.62x40WT (they make a similar bullet for the 300BLK) which are made to expand at lower velocities so you don't have to use .308 bullets that are made to expand at higher velocities of the .308 Winchester cartridge.

All cartridges require well placed shots, if you gut shoot a hog, it will run a long ways. With a better bullet like the 120gr SST out of he 6.8, they will expire quicker than any sub bullet at subsonic speeds or many other bullet/cartridge combinations. But of course a .338 Lapua would have even greater terminal effects than lesser cartridges.

Back to what this post is about. I use 208gr Amax's in my 8.5" 300BLK, but I've never shot a hog with it, someday maybe, just like I want to do with my AirForce Condor air rifle with a 31gr bullet going at 1100 fps, why, well because I know it do what I want to do with a well placed shot. You can watch Keith Warren take several hogs with .177 and .22 caliber Gamo air rifles, with well placed shots.

But, when we are talking general, shooting hogs on a regular basis and more than one at a time or running shots, there isn't a single subsonic round I would use because there are much better combinations that work better. Even a 5.56 with M193 ammo would perform much better.

So, can 208gr Amax at 1050fps kill a hog with a well placed shot, sure, so can my air rifle, but both are far far from optimal and require a well placed shot.

In closing, why shoot a hog with a well placed shot from a subsonic bullet, same reason I've shot deer at 700 yards, because I can. Would it have been better to get in to 100 yards from the deer to be more effective, sure, would also be better to shoot hog with a well placed shot, with good bullet, with a good cartridge, yes. But by numbers, the 5.56 takes more hogs each year than any other caliber out there. When we think in the case of the feral hog eradication, it is necessary by whatever means possible, but we still have to think about trying to do our best at whatever we do, and in that sense, a subsonic platform isn't the most logical choice. When considering supersonic ammo, factory loaded ammunition, choice of hunting bullets, AR platform for follow-up shots, it's hard to beat the 6.8.
 

TEXASLAWMAN

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Dave that is the anemic load for spec 1 6.8 chambers. My 120sst loads are smoking that 110 gr load posted. That is a favorite trick the blackout and Grendel guys use. Thanks to Remington and their botched 6.8 attempt.

The blackout is decent supersonic but from what I've seen it's no 6.8 out of the 5 guys I knew that were hunting with the blackout only one has not converted after hunting with me.
 

DaveABQ

Albuquerque, NM
I said that in there, all the loads are less than what you can do with handloading.

I'm running the 7.62x40WT with 110gr bullet at 2530 fps from a 14.7" barrel with no pressure signs.

The 300blk is definitely not on par with the 6.8. I come much closer with the 7.62x40WT but not quite as well.

My point, a well placed shot from almost any gun subsonic gun can drop a hog, just not as close to being as effective as supersonic load.
 

TEXASLAWMAN

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Ok I see that now I droned out before I got that far into it.
 

Just_me_mongo

Where's the piggiez?
Here is what I have for hunting....I will be in N. Texas by 6/13... I will be hunting near Texoma.

I have my carbine length 6.8 spc I, 1/10 twist with Hornady 120 SST factory loads. I will also have my .300 BLK SBR. It is 9.5" barrel, 1/8 twist. I have handloads for this 'n. 208 AMAX with 10.5 gr of RE7. They are pushing about 1020 FPS. I just want to test a new rifle. I now know that I will only take neck/ear shots with the sbr at closer ranges... I can give a review once I am done...

Thanks for sharing the info guys!
 

Just_me_mongo

Where's the piggiez?
Oh - and after I leave N. Texas, I will be heading to E. Texas near Lake Palestine.....sounds like there are some good size hogs on the property I am going to....I am super excited to get back to the Lone Star State.....who knows...Lord willing - maybe I will stay in Texas for good (some day).....
 

DaveABQ

Albuquerque, NM
Ok I see that now I droned out before I got that far into it.

As you know from our conversations in the past, I'm not a 300 blackout fan, there are so many other calibers available that outperform it, can't see why anyone would own one and I don't recommend them. The only thing I see a purpose for them is if you want to shoot a heavy bullet subsonic, they work well for that because you can shoot a 240gr bullet at 1050 fps out of a 8" barrel. But what good is it? Its fun that's for sure.

The problem is people are thinking the 300 BLK is this super cartridge and its not. For people that are buying them to shoot supersonic, they just haven't done the research, its more like a fad right now. Sure you can kill hogs or deer with a supersonic round, it is just far from being a good cartridge for it.
 

DaveABQ

Albuquerque, NM
Here is what I have for hunting....I will be in N. Texas by 6/13... I will be hunting near Texoma.

I have my carbine length 6.8 spc I, 1/10 twist with Hornady 120 SST factory loads. I will also have my .300 BLK SBR. It is 9.5" barrel, 1/8 twist. I have handloads for this 'n. 208 AMAX with 10.5 gr of RE7. They are pushing about 1020 FPS. I just want to test a new rifle. I now know that I will only take neck/ear shots with the sbr at closer ranges... I can give a review once I am done...

Thanks for sharing the info guys!

It can work with subs, but you already know the limitations. I have an 8.5" 300BLK, I shoots 208's, love the quiet shot it makes, but haven't used it for taking a hog yet. Not sure I will because it is basically a one shot gun with a neck or head shot.
 

TEXASLAWMAN

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Good luck Mongo sorry for all the off topic stuff here. I hope you get kills with both of your rifles!
 

DaveABQ

Albuquerque, NM
Yep, it still will be fun, it's why I have one for shooting subs, maybe I'll give it a try one of these times out. Have fun Mongo, report back with results.
 

Taco

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As you know from our conversations in the past, I'm not a 300 blackout fan, there are so many other calibers available that outperform it, can't see why anyone would own one and I don't recommend them. The only thing I see a purpose for them is if you want to shoot a heavy bullet subsonic, they work well for that because you can shoot a 240gr bullet at 1050 fps out of a 8" barrel. But what good is it? Its fun that's for sure.

The problem is people are thinking the 300 BLK is this super cartridge and its not. For people that are buying them to shoot supersonic, they just haven't done the research, its more like a fad right now. Sure you can kill hogs or deer with a supersonic round, it is just far from being a good cartridge for it.

I would say that in my experience the 300blk 110 tx-tax is a good deer killer to 200. Better than hogs due to the anatomical differences. I think that to an extent that's what's driving a lot of the market. A guy that hunts 4-5 times a year gets a cool AR and maybe a can for he and his kids to shoot a few deer and maybe a hog or a dozen at the lease. The deer I've shot with the 300 didn't make it past 25 yards double lunged or heart shot. On larger hogs though it has disappointed me.
 

Taco

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I've shot a little or a dozen hogs with a suppressed 9mm AR with 147gr Hornady XTP at close ranges. Pretty silly I know but I wanted to try it. Results the same as 220 otm 300blk.
 

Wildfowler

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I've shot a little or a dozen hogs with a suppressed 9mm AR with 147gr Hornady XTP at close ranges. Pretty silly I know but I wanted to try it. Results the same as 220 otm 300blk.
First two hogs I ever killed with an AR happened to be with 9mm 147 grain XTP subsonics at about 60 yards. I hit three of them out of a big sounder under a persimmon tree. Two of them dropped and I never saw the third one again. If That's all I had handy I would definitely pull the trigger on them again with a 9 mm.

If you can take your time with your shot you will do fine the matter what caliber you're using.

My problem is that I still get Buck fever and am guilty of often rushing the shot when that first hog steps out.
 
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