Who here is buying NV or thermal in the next 365 days?
- Thread starter TEXASLAWMAN
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Things sure can hide. I've done double takes on skunks that I couldn't see at all through the thermal, but were a VERY visible black spot in the field through my pvs14.
Not to be too argumentative, but dead things don't hide. They may be obscured and difficult or impossible to spot, but they do not hide.
Yes, anything that is completely obscured from line of sight cannot be detected with thermal. But living creatures move, and wrt obscured critters, it is their movement that reveals them, eventually. Or yours, when you change aspects.
JPK
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Not much mass to them and that fluffy hair insulates them not to mention they are close to the ground. I can usually see them but they are a lighter shade.
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At 250 yards I don't think you will be able to count the tines unless they are still in velvet.
Lots of guys begin their thermal or NV search thinking they will be shooting regularly at extended ranges. But 300yds is a damned long way at night and there is not often a need to shoot anywhere near that far. Even if your terrain is pretty open.
Predators come to the call much more readily at night, so long as you don't give them a reason not to.
Deer antlers are very visible when the deer are in velvet, not so visible when they have shed their velvet. For counting points in the late summer when the deer are still in velvet a 640 would surely be better. My thermals are 2.45x 640, 1.45x 640 and a 1x 384 spotter. The 2.45x unit would be best for counting points at 250yds, but the 1.45x would do it if the critter cooperates. With any of them big looks big, its the detail that the 2.45x 640 unit provides.
For ID'ing a predator at night, the hunter uses more than just the view of the animal. It's behavior plays a large part in ID'ing it. For example, at distance you may have a fox or coyote or maybe its a deer. [Good time to point out that the lack of depth perception with thermal can be a challenge if there aren't familiar terrain features to give you clues.] The you see it raise it's head - obviously it was feeding- most likely a deer... or you see it pouncing - a coyote mousing in the field... or it begins to run toward the call - deer almost never due that, most likely a predator, and it will be getting closer for a better view anyway...
Hope this helps,
JPK
Well as long as we aren't being argumentative, that is good. However, shot animals do run and hide in brush where they die and are difficult to locate, even when using thermal.
Oso and TLM mention skunks. I have seen hogs that were wet that are largely obscured from thermal view, but were visible with the naked eye.
If you ever get out to some rocky country, you will be amazed at how well cottontails blend in with the rocks. A motionless cottontail out in the open terrain can look like a rock and vice versa. It is funny when you have been watching an around and then a "rock" hops away. Trying to find a dead hog in rocky terrain can be equally difficult. The dead hog's lack of movement does not give it away. It may not be hiding, but it is hidden from thermal even being out in the open.
So while "nothing hides from thermal" (not that animals know what thermal is and are trying to avoid it), animals can be obscured from thermal (and view), cloaked from thermal (but actually seen visually), or actually be seen by thermal and completely unrecognizable. So the bottom line is that animals can effectively be hidden from thermal, no doubt about it.
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Yes, dead critters, or live ones, can be hard or even impossible to find when obscured, as I noted. And "obscured" is as simple as not visible in the line of sight, like when lying in grass taller than the carcass.
I am aware that an animal can be seen with thermal but not recognized, at least until it moves. But eventually it is going to move, and as I wrote, it will be movement that reveals it. Your cottontail rock hopping away, for example.
Here, especially just after sunset on a sunny warmish or hot day, a critter just inside or outside of a tree line or fence row with brush at the base can be hard to distinguish because of the strong thermal returns from the brush and any bare branches. Particularly if the tree line faces toward the west.
Here we have no issue spotting skunks though they appear smaller through the thermal at first glance than they do through NV or in a flashlight beam, but at shorter ranges close examination with the thermal has revealed a larger profile with little differentiation between some backgrounds and the outer hair and tail. IIRC, their faces and anuses always stand out, and I think their feet, when the grass/crop/dirt don't obscure them. I will pay greater attention when I see one this weekend when I'm out predator hunting.
As far as a dead hog or other critter lying fully exposed to thermal but difficult or impossible to distinguish from rocks, where I have been hunting we don't have rocks, but not too far we have mountains and short of the mountains is cattle country where there are many rocks and rock outcroppings protruding through the pastures and I can easily imagine the situation. Clearly, the more rocks the more checking you would have to do, but eventually, if you check out all of the thermal returns, you will recover your dead hog.
I certainly agree that any animal that is completely obscured is not going to be detected by thermal, or NV, or MK I eyeballs and a spotlight. Short of being completely obscured an animal is detectable with thermal - in fact is already detected if there is a thermal return, though it might take some patience or some changing of aspect to recognize it. That cannot be said of NV or even MK I's and a spotlight.
JPK
I am aware that an animal can be seen with thermal but not recognized, at least until it moves. But eventually it is going to move, and as I wrote, it will be movement that reveals it. Your cottontail rock hopping away, for example.
Here, especially just after sunset on a sunny warmish or hot day, a critter just inside or outside of a tree line or fence row with brush at the base can be hard to distinguish because of the strong thermal returns from the brush and any bare branches. Particularly if the tree line faces toward the west.
Here we have no issue spotting skunks though they appear smaller through the thermal at first glance than they do through NV or in a flashlight beam, but at shorter ranges close examination with the thermal has revealed a larger profile with little differentiation between some backgrounds and the outer hair and tail. IIRC, their faces and anuses always stand out, and I think their feet, when the grass/crop/dirt don't obscure them. I will pay greater attention when I see one this weekend when I'm out predator hunting.
As far as a dead hog or other critter lying fully exposed to thermal but difficult or impossible to distinguish from rocks, where I have been hunting we don't have rocks, but not too far we have mountains and short of the mountains is cattle country where there are many rocks and rock outcroppings protruding through the pastures and I can easily imagine the situation. Clearly, the more rocks the more checking you would have to do, but eventually, if you check out all of the thermal returns, you will recover your dead hog.
I certainly agree that any animal that is completely obscured is not going to be detected by thermal, or NV, or MK I eyeballs and a spotlight. Short of being completely obscured an animal is detectable with thermal - in fact is already detected if there is a thermal return, though it might take some patience or some changing of aspect to recognize it. That cannot be said of NV or even MK I's and a spotlight.
JPK
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I have found it hard to see the dead hogs when they die in a area with lots of rooting. The bare dirt heats up from the sun and stays hot most of the night.
Also like Brian said I've seen hogs covered in wet mud that do not show up.
He's righ about the rocks as well I made a great 600 yard stalk on some boulders in west Texas, they never saw me coming.
Also like Brian said I've seen hogs covered in wet mud that do not show up.
He's righ about the rocks as well I made a great 600 yard stalk on some boulders in west Texas, they never saw me coming.
So you are saying that things CAN {and do} HIDE FROM THERMAL!
If there is a thermal return, it does not mean an animal has been detected, even if the return is from an animal. A thermal return is just that, nothing more. The return just means there is a thermal source that has been detected. A determination has to be made whether it is an animal or not, and beyond that, if it is the target animal that is desired.
Thermal is a very useful tool, but it does have shortcomings along with its advantages.
No, as I wrote, an animal that is completely obscured will be impossible to find. Obscured at that moment, from that position until it moves or you move to remove the complete obstruction and reveal the animal or at least part of it. And that remains the case with thermal, NV, MK I eyeballs and a spotlight.
When a thermal return from an animal is visible on the thermal's screen, the thermal has done it's job, it remains up to the operator to do his to recognize the return as an animal and not some inanimate object. So, semantics aside, the thermal has detected the animal when the return is visible on the thermal's screen, even if the operator has not been able to differentiate the return from those of inanimate objects. I am sure that as your experience with thermal expanded from the first time you used one you have gotten much better at differentiating thermal returns with any given thermal, the same as any operator as his experience expands. It is a stretch to blame a thermal for one operator's inability to differentiate returns when another can, or even when no operator can differentiate a particular return. I am also sure that you have observed first hand how a higher resolution thermal makes differentiating returns easier, along with greater native magnification, favorable conditions, a particular unit's or brand's software, brightness or contest settings for other examples.
No doubt that thermal has strengths and weaknesses, but detection isn't one of them. Especially compared to other night hunting options.
JPK
If you need to be able to swap between a day optic and thermal capability the clip on would do that, personally I prefer a dedicated thermal scope and day scope and good QD mounts.
However, I have a bud who loves his clip ons!
Of the two, I would select the 640 unit, but there are others here, including site owner TLM, who are more familiar with the Armasight line. Hopefully, TLM will chime in shortly, or maybe send him a PM for his advice.
JPK
However, I have a bud who loves his clip ons!
Of the two, I would select the 640 unit, but there are others here, including site owner TLM, who are more familiar with the Armasight line. Hopefully, TLM will chime in shortly, or maybe send him a PM for his advice.
JPK
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For clip ons I think 640 is the way to go since you are zooming in on the screen with your day optic.
Thanks for the quick response.
Great forum and people