Who here is buying NV or thermal in the next 365 days?
- Thread starter TEXASLAWMAN
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Even with a 640 core it can be tough to identify non moving objects. Angles can really play tricks on you....
There are a LOT of factors that are involved in such matters. I can tell you that I use a FLIR PS32 (320 resolution 9hz) for a spotting scope and make identifications with it all the time and have troubles with some. Things like distance, vegetation, viewing perspective on the animal, etc. will all come into play in addition to the climatic conditions. As OG noted, there can likewise be issues with 640 resolution scopes with much larger lenses.
If you know the distance of the animal (sometimes very difficult to discern on unfamiliar ground), then you can figure out some understanding of its size. If you don't know the distance, determining size is often problematic.
You would be surprised how many times people identify rabbits as various animals other than rabbits because they don't realize that the rabbit is actually very close. A buddy of mine identified a calf as a coyote with his thermal. It was stationary and severely quartered toward us. I asked how far away the coyote was and he said "maybe 100 yards." I am furiously scanning the field we are in and not seeing any animals at all. Coyotes tend to move a lot and I knew we were going to lose the opportunity to shoot if I didn't spot it quick. I finally had to have him point with his finger in the direction of the "coyote" and I saw it.
It was a calf, on the other side of a road, across 2 fences, and close to 300 yards. What happened? Too much digital magnification, bad perspective on the animal, and loss of situational context. And to be honest, I could not readily tell what it was either, except that by behavior (standing still for too long), I could see that it wasn't a typical coyote. Moving laterally about 30 yards provided a better image. He then thought maybe it was a deer. This was followed with a discussion on making thermal "identifications" and I had to demonstrate that the deer was a calf before he finally believed me. We both had 640 scopes. The difference was largely one of experience in recognizing traits that are more typical or are diagnostic of one animal over another.
theblakester
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Yep. Done that hog hunting after long nights of not seeing the hogs I was hoping to see.
Yup, sometimes you just want to see something. Those field mice become lions when you've not seen anything else roaming.
ccreyeder
New Member
I would say your guess is correct. When I first got my thermal spotter (HD19A) I thought I would have "superman vision" lol... I ended up stalking a lot of rocks, oil well flares, etc lol. you can see that something is out there, but you have to learn based on size, how it moves or doesnt move, etc what the target prob is. Just takes practice. I can say though, with the 19A when hogs come out say 50-100 yrds away, you will definitely be able to tell immediately what they are.
Hope that helps!
If you have thermal I think NV is really optional, but the one thing that NV can do better than thermal is provide depth perception, which can translate into range estimation or at least the ability to differentiate distances.
For example, I was hunting with a bud last weekend and I was describing the terrain as I remembered it and as I could see it wearing PVS 14's. I kept proposing a plan based the description of a doughnut shaped field, with a long thin tree line in the center. With his 640 thermal spotter he could not distinguish the closer centered tree line from the tree line on the opposite side of the doughnut and didn't understand my proposed plan. He grabbed an Envis and within a few seconds of scanning the field, he got it.
As far as ID'ing with thermal, I agree with Lancer, Brian and Oso Grande. Lots of variables come into play. As mentioned, being able to gauge distance really helps. Whether the critter is standing, bedded, head up, feeding with head down, standing on a billiard table field or standing in knee deep winter wheat or grass... Just a few of the variables... But watching from a distance usually removes a lot of uncertainty.
JPK
For example, I was hunting with a bud last weekend and I was describing the terrain as I remembered it and as I could see it wearing PVS 14's. I kept proposing a plan based the description of a doughnut shaped field, with a long thin tree line in the center. With his 640 thermal spotter he could not distinguish the closer centered tree line from the tree line on the opposite side of the doughnut and didn't understand my proposed plan. He grabbed an Envis and within a few seconds of scanning the field, he got it.
As far as ID'ing with thermal, I agree with Lancer, Brian and Oso Grande. Lots of variables come into play. As mentioned, being able to gauge distance really helps. Whether the critter is standing, bedded, head up, feeding with head down, standing on a billiard table field or standing in knee deep winter wheat or grass... Just a few of the variables... But watching from a distance usually removes a lot of uncertainty.
JPK
Very interesting viewpoints. A lotta stuff I hadn't thought of. I'm thinkin there's gotta be a thermal blooper reel somewhere. Or at least some interesting fodder for a campfire BS session. 
Lots of big white rocks out at the club that sit in the sun all day. Tons of hay straw and short pines. Yee-ha.
Seems the spotting part of this game is where a l'il "zen" action might can come in.
Lots of big white rocks out at the club that sit in the sun all day. Tons of hay straw and short pines. Yee-ha.
Seems the spotting part of this game is where a l'il "zen" action might can come in.
It's amazing how many rocks I've kept watching while waiting for them to get up and move.Very interesting viewpoints. A lotta stuff I hadn't thought of. I'm thinkin there's gotta be a thermal blooper reel somewhere. Or at least some interesting fodder for a campfire BS session.
Lots of big white rocks out at the club that sit in the sun all day. Tons of hay straw and short pines. Yee-ha.
Seems the spotting part of this game is where a l'il "zen" action might can come in.
Ratdog68
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It's ok to get caught watchin' 'em. Just don't let 'em see ya tryin' to kill 'em (out of season)... the rocks, that is. But, it's ok to mail 'em to TLM so he can haul 'em to his favorite Sippy-Hole and drop 'em in to back-fill it.
There's a lot of that goes on in a groundhog field, too. I got video.
ccreyeder
New Member
It definitely takes practice when trying to ID something at distance. For me at least, the most important factor is movement, or actually, lack thereof. Hogs and coyotes typically are always on the move. If it is not moving, it may or may not be a live animal. My favorite was when I was first starting out with my thermal spotter. Was out with one of my sons around midnight one night. Spotted what I could have sworn was 2 good sized hogs standing next to each other a couple hundred yards away.... So.... me and the son stumble through the dark as quietly as we can (no night vision)..... I'm chastising him for making noise... I'm waving my shooting sticks in front of me like a blind man... Finally, after we had walked like that for about 100 yrds, I say "wait just a minute... those "blobs" are NOT moving... we give up, thinking they must have been rocks or something..... go out in the daylight the next day to the same spot and look off in the distance... Several miles off in the distance where 2 of those tall pipes next to some oil pumps that were flaring off gas.... oops! lmao...
Dnewcomb929
New Member
Relatively new to the whole night hunting. I bought a Photon XT 4.6 last June and love it, although its been relegated to
my .22 for popping rabbits about a month ago. It took 2 nice boars, 1 at 80 yards and another at 110.
Upon a recommendation from a friend that talked me out of an Armasight predator, I bought a 6x Nemisis gen 2+. It's
phenomenal!!! It rocks I've taken 4 pigs with it, including a huge (to me anyway) 230lb sow that was probably days from
having her next litter. The gen 2 about doubled my range.
As great as the gen 2 is, I'm ordering a Zeus 3 336 30hz on Monday to aid in spotting the predators... They blend in too well for
my failing eyes. The thermal will go on my 6.8 and will move the gen 2 over to a .308 bolt gun.
my .22 for popping rabbits about a month ago. It took 2 nice boars, 1 at 80 yards and another at 110.
Upon a recommendation from a friend that talked me out of an Armasight predator, I bought a 6x Nemisis gen 2+. It's
phenomenal!!! It rocks
I've taken 4 pigs with it, including a huge (to me anyway) 230lb sow that was probably days from having her next litter. The gen 2 about doubled my range.
As great as the gen 2 is, I'm ordering a Zeus 3 336 30hz on Monday to aid in spotting the predators... They blend in too well for
my failing eyes. The thermal will go on my 6.8 and will move the gen 2 over to a .308 bolt gun.
theblakester
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What they said^
Dnewcomb929
New Member
The Zues 640 3-24x75 /30hz is what my buddy has, sadly though that's a bit over my price range currently.
I have watched just about all of the TLM's videos... so much so that I liked the LWRC Razorback enough that I bought one.
If I'd have saved the coin on the gen 2 I would've bought one of the 640's. The way it is now, I'll keep the gen 2 as a mounted optic for
friends and family that come in town.
SilentHunter79
New Member
I am looking at making a purchase in the next 5 days or so..
1. What will you be buying night vision, thermal, or both? Thermal
2. What will you be using the equipment for? Predator Hunting
3. Do you have a specific unit in mind if so which one? Right now I am looking at the Zeus 336 and the 640 42mm.. I still cant seem to make my mind up between the two. Unless I have been misinformed the 336 5-20 75mm would have just as good if not better identification range than the 640 2-16 42mm and at less cost. I have also just been look at the 336 3-12 42mm and the 640 2x 42mm.. Overall I am pretty much lost and do not want to make a bad decision...
1. What will you be buying night vision, thermal, or both? Thermal
2. What will you be using the equipment for? Predator Hunting
3. Do you have a specific unit in mind if so which one? Right now I am looking at the Zeus 336 and the 640 42mm.. I still cant seem to make my mind up between the two. Unless I have been misinformed the 336 5-20 75mm would have just as good if not better identification range than the 640 2-16 42mm and at less cost. I have also just been look at the 336 3-12 42mm and the 640 2x 42mm.. Overall I am pretty much lost and do not want to make a bad decision...
Predator hunting is my main activity with my thermals and NV.
I can tell you that in our mixed terrain 5x would be way too much magnification. FOV can be king, so compare FOV between the options you are looking at.
2-3x seems to be about right for night hunting. 640 allows 2x digital zoom (whatever is native, x2) so whatever you think is adequate magnification can be doubled without loosing too much resolution, if your scope is 640. If you choose a 320 unit beware that even 2x digital zoom has its limits.
In our hunting, it is the close and quick shots that are the more challenging. At night the predator will come to the call, or well within range. It's the wily f'ers that use cover or some terrain feature to pop up close that are more challenging.
I am not very familiar with the Armasight units, I am an IR Defense fan, but of the units you mention, 2x and 640 would be my natural favorites.
I know from first hand experience that that 75mm 3x 640 Zues is a nice scope.
Hope this helps,
JPK
I can tell you that in our mixed terrain 5x would be way too much magnification. FOV can be king, so compare FOV between the options you are looking at.
2-3x seems to be about right for night hunting. 640 allows 2x digital zoom (whatever is native, x2) so whatever you think is adequate magnification can be doubled without loosing too much resolution, if your scope is 640. If you choose a 320 unit beware that even 2x digital zoom has its limits.
In our hunting, it is the close and quick shots that are the more challenging. At night the predator will come to the call, or well within range. It's the wily f'ers that use cover or some terrain feature to pop up close that are more challenging.
I am not very familiar with the Armasight units, I am an IR Defense fan, but of the units you mention, 2x and 640 would be my natural favorites.
I know from first hand experience that that 75mm 3x 640 Zues is a nice scope.
Hope this helps,
JPK