I just purchased a Zeus Pro 2-8x30 thermal from Armasight Just now testing the scope and I'm thinking I may exchange it for a Zeus Pro 4-16x50. I will be hunting with the scope but also have it for defensive purposes. I'm a retired cop from Alaska so I've done lots of hunting just not with thermal scopes. Any info would be appreciated. My main questions are whether the image will be clearer and will there be a noticeable benefit at longer distances with 16x50 scope.
Which thermal to buy???
- Thread starter akretcop
- Start date
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
Currently I have three thermals, a
1x (19mm Armasight Q-14 640(30) )
2x (50mm Pulsar Apex 384(50))
3x (75mm Armasight Zeus 640(30))
The higher the magnification, the better able to detect and identify at longer distances.
The lower the magnification, the wider the field of view and the better able to scan larger areas more quickly at shorter distances.
The larger the lens, the more "information" that will be received by the device, and the more likely to be able to detect/identify in poor conditions.
The higher the resolution of the front end device (640 is higher than 384 or 320) the "clearer" the image will be, all other things being equal.
As a general detection scanner, the 1x is king. As a long range rifle scope, the 3x is king (from amongst my listed devices) as an in between, the 2x is king.
All three have their place.
==
So in your case above, going from 30mm to 50mm will give your device more information and improve the image in poor conditions. You didn't mention the resolution of the front end of your device, 320 or 640. Going from 2x to 4x, will improve long distance targeting ability, but significantly reduce ability to use as a scanner. It will take longer to scan the same area with a 4x than with a 2x.
Actually, I might suggest that 4x is too much magnification for hunting. I am able to get consistent 3 inch groups at 500yds with 5.56(18) with 3x Zeus 640, without digital zoom. And to be able to scan for multiple moving critters I want the lowest magnification I can have an still give a good chance of hitting the target.
If you want to maximize image clarity, not only will a larger lens (30mm to 50mm) help but a higher resolution (going from 320 to 640) will also help.
If you can state the upper end of distances you would be hunting and also the lower end, that would help determine optimal magnification.
Will you also have a second handheld 1x thermal for spotting, or will you be both spotting and engaging with the one thermal mounted on the rifle?
Will by inventory, I can run the 1x on my helmet as a hands free spotter and then also run one of the scopes on the rifle for enhanced identification and engagement.
1x (19mm Armasight Q-14 640(30) )
2x (50mm Pulsar Apex 384(50))
3x (75mm Armasight Zeus 640(30))
The higher the magnification, the better able to detect and identify at longer distances.
The lower the magnification, the wider the field of view and the better able to scan larger areas more quickly at shorter distances.
The larger the lens, the more "information" that will be received by the device, and the more likely to be able to detect/identify in poor conditions.
The higher the resolution of the front end device (640 is higher than 384 or 320) the "clearer" the image will be, all other things being equal.
As a general detection scanner, the 1x is king. As a long range rifle scope, the 3x is king (from amongst my listed devices) as an in between, the 2x is king.
All three have their place.
==
So in your case above, going from 30mm to 50mm will give your device more information and improve the image in poor conditions. You didn't mention the resolution of the front end of your device, 320 or 640. Going from 2x to 4x, will improve long distance targeting ability, but significantly reduce ability to use as a scanner. It will take longer to scan the same area with a 4x than with a 2x.
Actually, I might suggest that 4x is too much magnification for hunting. I am able to get consistent 3 inch groups at 500yds with 5.56(18) with 3x Zeus 640, without digital zoom. And to be able to scan for multiple moving critters I want the lowest magnification I can have an still give a good chance of hitting the target.
If you want to maximize image clarity, not only will a larger lens (30mm to 50mm) help but a higher resolution (going from 320 to 640) will also help.
If you can state the upper end of distances you would be hunting and also the lower end, that would help determine optimal magnification.
Will you also have a second handheld 1x thermal for spotting, or will you be both spotting and engaging with the one thermal mounted on the rifle?
Will by inventory, I can run the 1x on my helmet as a hands free spotter and then also run one of the scopes on the rifle for enhanced identification and engagement.
Drift
LSB Member
Welcome. Which thermal to buy is the $10,oo0 question... Literally.
The consensus of opinion, is that the bigger the front objective, the more useful magnification. Most people thinking is that around a 75 mm front objective is great, the 100 is better but maybe too heavy for tactical purposes. Of course all that is expensive; the 50mm is more affordable, but not as much clarity at longer distance. My hunting buddy's Zeus 3 75mm 640 @30hz is very good.
There is lots of good information on this forum. The vendors on this forum will move heaven and earth to find the thermal that is right for you .
Whatever you upgrade to, please give us a report about what you went to and why.
The consensus of opinion, is that the bigger the front objective, the more useful magnification. Most people thinking is that around a 75 mm front objective is great, the 100 is better but maybe too heavy for tactical purposes. Of course all that is expensive; the 50mm is more affordable, but not as much clarity at longer distance. My hunting buddy's Zeus 3 75mm 640 @30hz is very good.
There is lots of good information on this forum. The vendors on this forum will move heaven and earth to find the thermal that is right for you .
Whatever you upgrade to, please give us a report about what you went to and why.
I agree with this quote from Wiggy. In my experience, 3x is as high as I would want to go for native magnification, and IMO, a little less is better.
One significant difference between hunting at night and hunting during daylight is that it is easy to close distance to your target at night. Scent remains critical, but critters all seem to act as if the darkness hides them (which it does if you aren't using thermal - even good intensified light NV won't allow you to pick out critters in night shadows or behind a light screen of brush or when the night is particularly dark.) Also, if you are calling predators, you don't need anywhere near the amount of cover and concealment as during daytime. In fact, too many of the opportunities my predator hunting buds and I fail to capitalize on are critters who manage to get within a few yards of the call using terrain features we failed to appreciate in the dark, like rises and folds in a corn field.
Also, while terrain and back drop seem to be clearer in poor conditions with a unit with a larger objective, critters still pop with a unit with a smaller lens, though detection and ID range will suffer some.
I have an IR Defense Patrol (19mm, 640, 1.45x native) which makes a handy spotter or scope, an IR Defense Hunter MK II (35mm, 640, 2.45x native) which is my go to scope and, imo, about the perfect night hunting scope magnification and a Pulsar HD 19A spotter (19mm, 384, 1x native.) I have also had the opportunity to look through a Zeus 75mm, 640, 3x and found it to be an excellent scope, about the same capability as my MK II in the very poor conditions at the time.
I suggest looking at a dedicated spotter. Scanning with a rifle mounted scope sucks, and trying to QD a dual purpose unit, while workable, is a pita at night. The Pulsar HD 19A is a remarkably capable spotter for it's $2k price.
My thoughts!
JPK
Thanks for all the quick responses. I also bought a Armasight PVS 14 which I plan on helmet mounting. The thermal I bought is the 336 not the 640. 640 was a little out of my price range after buying the NV and the thermal scope. I'll be putting the thermal on a 5.56. If I'm reading the you guys correctly, I may be better off keeping what I have as far as the Zeus 2-8x30. I would guess most of my hunting will be 250 yards or less. I live in Tennessee now and there's lots of woods with occasional longer shots in fields. Lots of coyotes and hogs here. As far as tactical uses, who knows.
Like this forum already.
Like this forum already.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
Agree with JPK on critter behavior at night. It has taken me a while to realize how closely I can "stalk up" to them. Critters seem to have 2 different critical distances with each critter type having different pairs of these 2 distances. The "alert" or "detect" distance and then "react" or "run away" distance. Like for rats at night, the "detect" distance, is maybe around 40yds. And at first, this was the distance I was shooting at the rats. But then I realized, I could talk up to about 10yds before they would seriously react and move to a more hidden location.
Turkey's often don't move off at night until I am within about 5yds of them.
Deer on the other hand seem to detect at between 150-300yds if I am moving or otherwise making noise. Yet they close to within 25 to even 5 yds, if I am completely still. They might even get closer, but at that point I whistle until they run off. I don't actually want to shake hands with them!
Coyotes have zoomed by me at 10yds to 40yds if I am stationary, I'm not sure whether they detected me. At 70yds, I've whistled at them and had them look at me, but not move off. In fact once, I got a video of one lying down for a nap after I whistled.
Turkey's often don't move off at night until I am within about 5yds of them.
Deer on the other hand seem to detect at between 150-300yds if I am moving or otherwise making noise. Yet they close to within 25 to even 5 yds, if I am completely still. They might even get closer, but at that point I whistle until they run off. I don't actually want to shake hands with them!
Coyotes have zoomed by me at 10yds to 40yds if I am stationary, I'm not sure whether they detected me. At 70yds, I've whistled at them and had them look at me, but not move off. In fact once, I got a video of one lying down for a nap after I whistled.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
Agree, keeping what you got might be best option for out to 250yds. If you really want more clarity, upgrading to the 640(30) might be the single most important step. Going to larger lens is probably next after that.
==
If you will scan with the thermal on the rifle, then mounting the scope so that you can hold the rifle up comfortably is key. I've done most of my rat slaying with the 1x, 19mm q-14 640(30) mounted on the rifle. So I am walking and scanning for about 2 hours (going through 2-3 battery changes). But I have made the rifle as light as possible and rest my support arm against my body to provide support to the support arm (like of like the kid olympics style shooters do). I tried this with the pulsar 2x, 50mm 384(50) and my arm got tired and I needed to drop the weapon down to rest my arm, fairly often. But I had the 1x q-14 on my helmet, so I could still scan. But the 1 pound difference between the Apex 2x and the Q-14 1x made a huge difference in my ability to hold the rifle up most of the time.
==
So, bottomline, a separate scanner is to be preferred, as JPK suggests. The PVS-14 on the helmet is fine for navigating, but you might not see critters in the bushes. However, if you turn on your illuminator, on low power with max zoom and scan with that while you are walking about, you might see their eyeballs looking at you. I got several rats with that trick that I would not have seen with the PVS-14 without the illuminator on.
Using thermal to scan however, ensures that you won't miss anything that can be seen. With the PVS-14 + illuminator you are hoping to be able to see their eyeballs if they are in concealing terrain.
Thanks for all the info. Headed to Texas for hog hunting in the next couple of weeks and also a trip to Michigan next week. Hopefully I can play with the scopes I bought. Tn has a lot of critters but you can only hunt during daylight hours here. Practice here and hunt in Texas. After reading these forums, I think I will keep the scopes I have. Will post the results of the Texas hunt.
Where abouts in Texas are you going for hog hunting? Paid type deal of friends or family?