New Thermal purchase

[sigfla]

I posted an earlier thread re: my comparison on buying Armasight. It seems as I research more and get more serious the top dog in terms of clarity is the Trijicon. It doesn't have the bells and whistles of the Armasight (or other top end brands) but it has what you need and gives the best picture. Until Armasight comes out with its new cores its still behind the Trijicon in that area. If you want recording, colored viewing modes, etc. you gotta go with something other than the Trijicon right now.

Just interns of discussion all else being equal would anyone have an opinion on this current ranking:

1. Trijicon (clarity)
2. Armasight (extra features)
3. Pulsar (clarity, features)
4. ATN

I am trying to convince myself to make a significant jump up in price/clarity from my earlier thread and get the 35mm MKIII. I don't care about recording or the colored modes (edge detect sounds just fine to me). The Pulsar 75 is just too big/bulky to interest me. I have always wanted the Trijicon/IR Hunter so rather than settle for less I might as well just take the plunge. If Armasight had their new cores out I might go that route but I want a unit this year.

 

[Rookie]

I tried to talk myself into something cheaper. In the end, my wife told me to get the Trijicon because, "you'll just end up getting it later. This way we're saving money in the long run".

Personally, I don't care for the edge detect, but the picture is good enough that I don't care that it doesn't have other colors.

 

[sigfla]

Unfortunately thats how I am. I always end up trying something less then end up paying more to get what I really wanted from day 1. Right now sitting by my front door is a return box for Amazon. I bought something tried it for a day hoping it would work and ended up just sending it back. In the end I will purchase what I really wanted anyway. I just hate buying something without know much about it. I have to rely on the experts here. I could call a dealer but i am wary they will just lead me to the more expensive option by default.

 

[Rookie]

Yeah, it sucks spending so much money on something sight unseen. Fortunately, I have a friend who had an MK2. He is the guy that I buy all my scopes through. I got to look through it for a few minutes last year, so I had a little to go from. I'd talk to big red dog - he was willing to give me options and not be pushy about which way was better.

 

[sigfla]

I'll tell you another thing I like the clip on option with the MKIII. I use a subsonic 45/70 that arcs like a rainbow but hits a ton. With my chosen reticle and the MKIII as a clip on I can use my ballistics program to still make longer hits. Thats my theory anyway.

 

[wigwamitus]

In my experience the BAE cores generally give the ability to PID faster at greater distances.

As to which model, there are 4:

mk2 19mm
mk2 35mm
mk3 35mm
mk3 60mm

Depending on the distances at which you typically need to shoot or scan, that will drive the optimal focal length lens for you.

They all have the same BAE core.

The 19mm is good for spotting out to 500yds and shooting out to 200yds ... the big advantage of the 19mm is the 22 FOV. If you are usually in close terrain, lots of tree lines etc. then 22 FOV is good as you can see much more territory. Note you can detect out much farther than 500yds, but PID is tougher for the 19mm due to less optical magnification.

The 35mm might be optimal for hunting able to shoot out to 300yds and scan/PID out beyond 1000 .. I've been able to PID hogs at 1200yds. The FOV is 12 degrees and for my primary use case, coop defense, where I am typically scanning/shooting under 100yds, the 35mm with 2.5x optical magnification is challenged due to the reduced fov (1x magnification is good for coop defense). As to the mk2 versus the mk3, the mk3 has a few more bells and whistles, but the mk2s should be findable for lower cost.

The 60mm is a great long distance scanner with base magnification 4.5x ... the trade off is the FOV of 7, which is a show stopper for coop defense. But if you typically hunting in open country, then PID on pigs beyond 1000yds will be easier. This can help plan your stalk route. As to shooting, I'd still say the limit is 300yds. The reticles are the same and they have good support for movers with 5, 10, 15, 20 mil hash marks (15 mil is good hold for 25 mph).

The BAE cores are clear enough that 2x digial is very usable. If you have time, once you have done PID, crank to 2x digial for shot placement. This gives 3x net magnification on the 19mm, 5x on the 35mm and 9x on the 60mm. I don't always have time to do this, but when I do, I think accuracy is improved.

The above are the turret housing models, there are also weapons mountable joystick housing models in 19mm and 35mm (the 60mm joystick model is a scanner only, not weapons mountable).

Note you can record with almost all the commercially available thermals, but some, like the TEOs require an external DVR, whereas others have DVR built in. I don't think most people use the "colors" ... especially the "physo-delic" ones ... and at least a few people on here have asked "how can I get a thermal without all the bells and whistles!

==
If the TEOs did not exist on earth and I had to get something else right now, it would be the trail 640 50mm focal length lens. I've had 4 Pulsars and for the money, they are great. I'd actually rather not have the built in DVR as if it breaks, then I have to send in the scope to fix the DVR, but the 640 would be useful for me even with only 1.6 optical magnification.

The boson FLIRs? Well, I have two of them in my budget for next year, but I'm not counting on them anytime soon. I would not try to compare them to the previous Armasights, different core.

ATN, I have an ODIN mounted on my helmet and use it most nights can PID moving coyote at 500yds while rolling on 4 wheeler. But my experience with 19mm Thor HD was negative. I would not consider an ATN thermal scope at this point.

 

[Rookie]

I was told that the MK2 isn't being made anymore? Is this true?

 

[Taco]

I'll tell you another thing I like the clip on option with the MKIII. I use a subsonic 45/70 that arcs like a rainbow but hits a ton. With my chosen reticle and the MKIII as a clip on I can use my ballistics program to still make longer hits. Thats my theory anyway.

I'll tell you another thing I like the clip on option with the MKIII. I use a subsonic 45/70 that arcs like a rainbow but hits a ton. With my chosen reticle and the MKIII as a clip on I can use my ballistics program to still make longer hits. Thats my theory anyway.

You’re not going to be able to use it as a clip on. As far as I know only the snipe-ir is collimated.

 

[Rookie]

The MK3 has a clip on mode. Will it not work?

 

[sigfla]

It was an advertised feature pre Trijicon Electro Optics. The info from Trijicon is lacking IMHO. IR Defense had a couple of decent websites but even they weren't super informative. I suspect the old reticle options from IR Defense and Nightforce are no longer available either. The new TEO model MK3's have 5 reticles where the old ones were advertised as having 6. Correct me if I am wrong but the Collimated lenses only allow you to install the clip on without needing to rezero. A non collimated lens should work but you may just need to rezero. In any case it was a feature and I don't know why it wouldn't still be.

 

[sigfla]

Another thing is the old models were advertised as having a colored Palette mode. The TEO's do not. Anybody have an old IR defense model and care to comment? Info online is hard to find I guess do to export restrictions.

 

[wigwamitus]

Old reticle versus new reticles. The mk2s have 3 reticles, the mk3s have 2 additional reticles, 5 total. I do not think this has ever changeed.

The SNIPE-IR has collimnating lens on the rear, but still requires adjustments to bore sight in my experience.

The mk2 and mk3 both have clipon mode it is still there and has always been there as far as I know. This shrinks, the display to enable some magnification to be applied while minimizing acquisition of "fuzzy" while zooming on the pixels of the display. And the mk2/mk3 have ability to adjust bore sight.

I have used a SNIPE-IR for 2 months and I've been able to consistently hit heated steel (12x24) at 500yds with an 8x magnified day scope. It is a little fuzzy, but that does not prevent hitting the target. It does require boresight adjustment (see more detailed report in the practicing thread).

I have not tried clipon mode for mk2/mk3 too busy using this scope for its primary design purpose, dedicated thermal rifle scope. I've never even seen or heard anyone saying they used it has a clipon. But in theory it should work a little bit, maybe up to 4x out to 100yds. But I doubt there would be much repeatability to removing and remounting. Thus defeating the purpose of a clipon.

The mk2s are still readily available. I have not heard that they were discontinued. Who says they were discontinued?

The TEO online documentation looks pretty good to me.

 

[sigfla]

Thanks for the reticle run down. I was looking at old IR Defense documentation that listed 6 reticles. Maybe they included the clip on mode as one? The old IRD documents listed several 1x, maybe 2x scopes that were compatible in clip on mode. They had pics of it setup that way. I have seen one online youtube review where a guy used an Aimpoint dot in front of the MK2 or 3. Not really a clip on setup but close and it worked well. I use iStrelok Pro for ballistics and I have gotten into the habit of buying optics that have reticles listed in the app. A plus is he has a lot of Pulsar reticles listed. I just can't get into the aesthetics of that scope over the Trijicon/IR MK3.

FYI In the past when I was looking they told me IR Defense would not software support the MK2, no firmware updates, etc.. That could be where the rumor came from? Maybe that changed with Trijicon EO. Given the price points involved its prob better business for TEO to continue producing the MK2 and offer upgrades.

 

[Rookie]

The guy who ordered my MK3 was told that they weren't making the MK2 anymore. Maybe he was misinformed. It doesn't matter though, I got my MK3 cheap enough that a MK2 wasn't a consideration.

 

[wigwamitus]

... I have seen one online youtube review where a guy used an Aimpoint dot in front of the MK2 or 3 ...

Haha, well, since thermals can't see through normal glass, all putting an aimpoint in front of a thermal would do is block the ability of the thermal to see thru the aimpoint, thus obscuring the view. Reverse clipon works with night vision (i2) but not with thermal.

 

[sigfla]

Lol, aww come on you should know what I meant. The Aimpoint was between the shooters eye and the Thermal. Here is the video. Yes, your correct though. The red dot was BEHIND the thermal, lol.

 

[wigwamitus]

Good deal!!
And thanks for posting - now I can't say I've never heard/seen anyone try it!

 

[sigfla]

Any chance of getting confirmation of that drop compensated reticle in the TEO model? Do they inform you what bullet fps its compensated for if its still included?

 

[sigfla]

Lone star has a vid showing it on the Reap IR so i assume its on the MK3 also. Just no ballistic info on TEO's website.

 

[wigwamitus]

Not sure which reticle you are referring to .. this one sort of looks like a ballistic reticle, but I think it is a ranging reticle.

Could you show us a screen shot of the one you are calling a ballistic reticle?