Looking for Advice on Thermal for Coyote Problem

[AF_Vet]

Hello Everyone,

I am hoping to get some advice on several things. I have been a long time reader here and I am impressed by everyone's knowledge. So, thank you in advance for the advice.

I am looking at getting either the Pulsar Core RXQ30V or the Flir Thermosight Pro Series PTS233. The scope will be mounted on either an M4 5.56 or a Bolt Action 308.

1. I am nearsighted (recent development) and new to even using scopes. (I actually just purchased my first scope a month ago and things look ok at a distance without glasses for it.) Will I need to wear glasses using a thermal?

2. My small acreage sits in the middle of 175 acres of farm ground in Iowa. I have a serious coyote problem that I need help with. Between the two scopes above which one would help me identify coyotes better and also have good battery life for eliminating these vermin?

3. Video Recording and extras are not that important to me. I mostly need help with killing coyotes. What would be the pros and cons between the two scopes I have listed?

4. How does weather factor in for using thermal? It gets pretty cold here in Iowa and will either one of the scopes be affected by that?

 

[Brian Shaffer]

I would suggest not getting either one of those thermals for coyotes and get something that has an objective focus so that you can refine your picture as best as possible for smaller critters such as coyotes.

4. How does weather factor in for using thermal? It is an important consideration. People most commonly blame humidity for image deterioration with thermal and no doubt humidity (as water vapor will hold heat) is a very real factor, but I have experience higher humidity days with the image being affected significantly and days where the image is insignificantly affected. So the issue goes beyond just simple humidity and I suspect water droplet size will also come into play as do factors such as dust and pollen in the air. Thermal can see through fog, but only to a certain extent as fog is water vapor. A super heavy fog can render thermal, flashlights, etc. virtually useless.

Prolonged periods of cold or wet weather can render many things in your environment as virtually the same temperature if they don't generate heat and result in what I call "gray out." It is basically a form of thermal crossover where everything in the environment (except those generating heat) look the same gray color. So you can have trees, grass, derelict vehicles, last year's hay bales, etc. all appear to be virtually the same color of gray. Animals will stand out, but you may not see them in good context. Cold weather may be offset with sunny days that do warm up things in your environment differently such that they do stand out, at least for part of the night until they cool again. So, cold in and of itself isn't so bad as their can be variations in temperature and thermal will see this, but cold and cloudy, cold and wet, or long periods of wetness can cause grayout.

Similarly, wet animals will not show up as well on thermal as dry animals, though you can still spot them.

 

[AF_Vet]

I would suggest not getting either one of those thermals for coyotes and get something that has an objective focus so that you can refine your picture as best as possible for smaller critters such as coyotes.

4. How does weather factor in for using thermal? It is an important consideration. People most commonly blame humidity for image deterioration with thermal and no doubt humidity (as water vapor will hold heat) is a very real factor, but I have experience higher humidity days with the image being affected significantly and days where the image is insignificantly affected. So the issue goes beyond just simple humidity and I suspect water droplet size will also come into play as do factors such as dust and pollen in the air. Thermal can see through fog, but only to a certain extent as fog is water vapor. A super heavy fog can render thermal, flashlights, etc. virtually useless.

Prolonged periods of cold or wet weather can render many things in your environment as virtually the same temperature if they don't generate heat and result in what I call "gray out." It is basically a form of thermal crossover where everything in the environment (except those generating heat) look the same gray color. So you can have trees, grass, derelict vehicles, last year's hay bales, etc. all appear to be virtually the same color of gray. Animals will stand out, but you may not see them in good context. Cold weather may be offset with sunny days that do warm up things in your environment differently such that they do stand out, at least for part of the night until they cool again. So, cold in and of itself isn't so bad as their can be variations in temperature and thermal will see this, but cold and cloudy, cold and wet, or long periods of wetness can cause grayout.

Similarly, wet animals will not show up as well on thermal as dry animals, though you can still spot them.

Thank you Brian. What thermal do you suggest for my situation? As always cost is a factor but the wife did give me permission for the 2k range. If it is much more that would be a new negotiation with my boss and that may or may not go well.

 

[Brian Shaffer]

While not as small, a Pulsar Apex XQ50 is an inexpensive thermal that is quite functional. You might wait and see what FLIR is coming out with ...when they come out.

 

[FrankT]

^^^ what Brian said. I too need glasses to see and even though the diopter helps on these a front focal adjustment is really nice and clears a scope up using no glasses. Maybe the last years line up of pulsars or Armasight zeus both of which have come down in price. I would think a 640 unit also.

 

[AKay]

I would warm up those negotiating skills. Buy the best unit you can and do not settle on a cheaper unit. You will spend less money and get the greatest benefit in the long run. Be nice to the wife!!!!

 

[Jhop]

I'd say you'll have better success if you already know how to call coyotes in. Often times we see coyotes but they move more than pigs. So unless they are in range when you spot them you'll have to call them to you. Like these two. We spotted them way down in the bottom, probably 500 yards out. I jumped out of the truck setup my shooting sticks and started calling them.

The second part of the video with the single coyote was shot in almost the exact same spot the next night under high humidity. No calling involed, just stuck the my gun out the window and dropped her.

 

[AF_Vet]

I'd say you'll have better success if you already know how to call coyotes in. Often times we see coyotes but they move more than pigs. So unless they are in range when you spot them you'll have to call them to you. Like these two. We spotted them way down in the bottom, probably 500 yards out. I jumped out of the truck setup my shooting sticks and started calling them.

The second part of the video with the single coyote was shot in almost the exact same spot the next night under high humidity. No calling involed, just stuck the my gun out the window and dropped her.

These coyotes I am dealing with come up under the deck of my house. So far they have killed one cat and two chickens of mine and they have killed most of the dogs in a 5 mile radius. One of them is pretty big and looks like some kind of hybrid. Their pack seems to be pretty large. They had my dog cornered once and I saved her but it was to dark for me to shoot them. I did buy a digital caller but I have not had any luck with it.

Does the front focal adjustment compensate for vision issues? It really sucks going from 20/20 from the last 45 years to this. And no one thinks the two thermals I listed would be able to help with the coyotes?

 

[FrankT]

neither of the 2 you mentioned have a front focal adjustment, they are fixed, so everything before and past the sweet spot can be out of focus

 

[AF_Vet]

neither of the 2 you mentioned have a front focal adjustment, they are fixed, so everything before and past the sweet spot can be out of focus

Frank, have you tried the Pulsar Apex XQ50? If so, what are your impressions of it?

 

[FrankT]

No sir I have not, I believe Brian has though

 

[AKay]

I would recommend playing the "it is for the safety of dog card" when you negotiate next for the more expensive unit.

I personally use the "it will be useful in the zombie apocalypse card" with my wife.

 

[AF_Vet]

I would recommend playing the "it is for the safety of dog card" when you negotiate next for the more expensive unit.

I personally use the "it will be useful in the zombie apocalypse card" with my wife.

I thought about that this morning but she watches walking dead and she is smart. She would say "dead people don't have a heat signature" lol. However, it would be useful in a shtf scenario if I had rechargeable batteries and solar system for that. I looked up the Pulsar Apex XQ50 and I noticed that have two models. One with a range finder and one without. I am guessing that when shooting in the dark it gets pretty difficult to know the range of a target with thermal unless you have set up some kind of markers at various distances in your preferred kill zone? Also the range finder version is awaiting federal approval. Is there an add on for a range finder to be added later to a Pulsar Apex XQ50?

 

[WhoCares]

What ever you do, rent the units you are looking at before you buy. If u don’t need a full time unit renting is very cost effective.

 

[AKay]

I thought about that this morning but she watches walking dead and she is smart. She would say "dead people don't have a heat signature" lol. However, it would be useful in a shtf scenario if I had rechargeable batteries and solar system for that. I looked up the Pulsar Apex XQ50 and I noticed that have two models. One with a range finder and one without. I am guessing that when shooting in the dark it gets pretty difficult to know the range of a target with thermal unless you have set up some kind of markers at various distances in your preferred kill zone? Also the range finder version is awaiting federal approval. Is there an add on for a range finder to be added later to a Pulsar Apex XQ50?

If she watches the LFD then she knows it is not about the zombies. It is about the Negan's. They definitely have a heat sig.

Depth is very difficult to judge. I try to scout the area before dark and range identifiable land marks. It is very hard to come to a new property at dusk that has wide open areas and know how far things are. Using a rifle that is pretty flat shooting is going to help immensely. I have found it very hard to use a 300 blkout in this situation. Knowing how far away something is also helps with target recognition. I have had a bunny bent over eating (10yards away) that looks like a 150lbs pig at a 100 yards.

 

[theblakester]

I would do a side by side with the apex xq38 and the apex xq50 if u can. I have one, my brother in law has the other. Both work great. It's not until u get out past 100-150 yards that the xq50 starts having an advantage. They're actually pretty similar to me. The xq50 only zoomed in slightly more and the xq38 has a slightly wider FOV.

 

[FrankT]

Direct from Pulsar, go to their web page

Lisa Edmonds‎toThe Thermal & NV Hunter's Group
October 27 at 4:20pm ·
Pulsar
$2,280
Fort Worth, TX
We have 13 Pulsar Apex XD38A 1.5-6x32 Thermal Scope Demo units, we're asking $2280 each. These are lightly used sales models and come with the full three year warranty. We're taking offers on these.

 

[der Teufel]

When negotiating with my wife (AKA the Finance Committee) I generally just fess up and say "It's for entertainment value only, there's no economic justification".
Most of the time she says "Go ahead & get it", but I try not to overuse that approach.
--
PS: This occurs only after I've been talking about it for at least three months - so that she's tired of hearing about it ...

 

[WhoCares]

^^^^^^lol that’s funny!

 

[AF_Vet]

yeah well the wife read what der teufel wrote and asked if I had two accounts on this and why i was talking to myself.