Mine is dialed in and clear. I was showing a guy my thermal S last Tuesday on his place. He says there is a feeder over there. Creek bottom and feeder under giant pecans. Moon shadow. Probably 120 yards. I hand him my hd38 scanner. He sees deer clearly and obviously...of course. I then break out the pvs14 and we can't see the feeder, or the deer. Thing is great for driving around in the Ranger, which I can do a lot of the time by moon light without it, but i'm just finding that it's really limited for finding animals. Maybe I'm being captain obvious. Thinking about ditching it for another thermal.
I like my pvs14........but......
- Thread starter Taco
- Start date
TEXASLAWMAN
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The thermals defeat camouflage the pvs14 does not there are things the pvs can do the thermal can not like see through glass and see ir lasers. I think it's a good combo to have both personally. To add something else to the mix now that I have a white phosphorus pvs14 the regular green just does not seem as detailed at least to my eyes. There is always something new I guess.
I just find that it's all about scanning and wind which is obviously obvious to you. I don't know that I would have bought a pvs14 knowing what a thermal scanner can do. I can't see anything clear enough past 50 yards to make it hunting useful. If I was shooting up an infantry column at 200 yards yeah I get it. But for seeing individual animals at that range I can't. Am I wrong?
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
For hunting inside 200yds that does not require much movement or any movement on unfamiliar ground, thermal by itself might be enough.
Where i2 seems to shine is to support movement (PVS-14) and to support longer distance hunting like coyotes 300-500yds with i2 clipon.
PVS-14 allows driving even if vehicle has glass. These days I drive a lot on 4-wheeler, which has no glass and q-14 on helmet works on MOST nights, but not all. These are still some nights, where thermal performance is poor enough that I'd rather drive with pvs-14, and I do. But ability to spot critters out hundreds of yards while rolling on 4-wheeler (hands free) is a useful capability that thermal can do on head off 4-wheeler. But when rolling in buggy with a buddy, I have glass in front and thermal will not work.
Some who coyote shoot at night from 300-500yds use thermal to spot, but engage with i2 clipon in front of day scope. This allows more magnification to be used. More magnification helps ensure "yote" is a "yote" and not a "farm dog". Clipon in front of day scope also helps with holds (more useful reticle). So I think this is another niche for i2, that thermals under $10k can't beat anyway: Magnification (identification) + Useful reticles for holding.
When I first started rat slaying, I used q-14 thermal on lanyard around neck for spotting and PVS-14 on head with ir-laser on rifle for engaging and that worked fine. But, then I put q-14 on .22lr and that worked more fine because setup is light enough to walk and scan almost continuously for up to 2 hours. Now I bring pvs-14 in pocket for those times when I need to navigate across creek to/from apple orchard without falling in. But this is an example of not much movement required and I am on familiar ground, so here PVS-14 is just a safety enhancer. So it is possible to operate without i2 in some situations, but in general, if navigating a longer distance and/or navigating unfamiliar ground, then I'd be bringing pvs-14(s).
==
Another thing I do when PVS-14 can't see something, is I slipon the 3x magnifier on the front, that helps a lot. In heavy mist conditions, I've had PVS-14 + 3x beat out apollo in terms of ability to see at distance.
Where i2 seems to shine is to support movement (PVS-14) and to support longer distance hunting like coyotes 300-500yds with i2 clipon.
PVS-14 allows driving even if vehicle has glass. These days I drive a lot on 4-wheeler, which has no glass and q-14 on helmet works on MOST nights, but not all. These are still some nights, where thermal performance is poor enough that I'd rather drive with pvs-14, and I do. But ability to spot critters out hundreds of yards while rolling on 4-wheeler (hands free) is a useful capability that thermal can do on head off 4-wheeler. But when rolling in buggy with a buddy, I have glass in front and thermal will not work.
Some who coyote shoot at night from 300-500yds use thermal to spot, but engage with i2 clipon in front of day scope. This allows more magnification to be used. More magnification helps ensure "yote" is a "yote" and not a "farm dog". Clipon in front of day scope also helps with holds (more useful reticle). So I think this is another niche for i2, that thermals under $10k can't beat anyway: Magnification (identification) + Useful reticles for holding.
When I first started rat slaying, I used q-14 thermal on lanyard around neck for spotting and PVS-14 on head with ir-laser on rifle for engaging and that worked fine. But, then I put q-14 on .22lr and that worked more fine because setup is light enough to walk and scan almost continuously for up to 2 hours. Now I bring pvs-14 in pocket for those times when I need to navigate across creek to/from apple orchard without falling in. But this is an example of not much movement required and I am on familiar ground, so here PVS-14 is just a safety enhancer. So it is possible to operate without i2 in some situations, but in general, if navigating a longer distance and/or navigating unfamiliar ground, then I'd be bringing pvs-14(s).
==
Another thing I do when PVS-14 can't see something, is I slipon the 3x magnifier on the front, that helps a lot. In heavy mist conditions, I've had PVS-14 + 3x beat out apollo in terms of ability to see at distance.
Without the PVS 14 you are pretty much stuck in a blind, with it you can move around easily, I think that is a huge advantage. It seems to me thermal is more difficult to move around with whether held or helmet mounted, maybe the refresh rate or transmission, not a native 1x?
When people use the term "i2" what does that actually stand for?
PS - Since getting my thermal, I have not used my nightvision scope except as a loner for a buddy to use.
Thanks.
PS - Since getting my thermal, I have not used my nightvision scope except as a loner for a buddy to use.
Thanks.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
Thermal is just like PVS-14 to move around with PROVIDED there is no glass in the way and PROVIDED thermal conditions are good enough. Take away either of those and you are BLIND, whether in a BLIND or not 
==
i2 = image intensifier ... synonymous with "night vision" ... or "star light scope" ... does not include "thermal".
==
For me it is not "i2 versus thermal" ... it is both ... and realizing they complement each other and that neither is a complete replacement for the other.
==
i2 = image intensifier ... synonymous with "night vision" ... or "star light scope" ... does not include "thermal".
==
For me it is not "i2 versus thermal" ... it is both ... and realizing they complement each other and that neither is a complete replacement for the other.
I have to disagree with you that moving under thermal is just like moving under i2. Is it possible to use thermal to move, absolutely, but the detail just isn't there compared to i2. Thermal just doesn't give me the confidence to move the way i2 does.Thermal is just like PVS-14 to move around with PROVIDED there is no glass in the way and PROVIDED thermal conditions are good enough. Take away either of those and you are BLIND, whether in a BLIND or not
==
i2 = image intensifier ... synonymous with "night vision" ... or "star light scope" ... does not include "thermal".
==
For me it is not "i2 versus thermal" ... it is both ... and realizing they complement each other and that neither is a complete replacement for the other.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
Sorry, I can only speak from my experience and what I said is true for me!!!
Assumptions are that other aspects are equal, so like q-14 is 1x and pvs-14 is 1x ... the FOV is slightly different and that does matter. And it did take some getting used to ... but all that aside ... after 3 months of steady use I now have the same confidence ... PROVIDED the thermal conditions are good enough, which around here is about 95% of the time.
I do take both when I go out.
I cannot say that what is true for me is true for others. I can only speak for myself
Assumptions are that other aspects are equal, so like q-14 is 1x and pvs-14 is 1x ... the FOV is slightly different and that does matter. And it did take some getting used to ... but all that aside ... after 3 months of steady use I now have the same confidence ... PROVIDED the thermal conditions are good enough, which around here is about 95% of the time.
I do take both when I go out.
I cannot say that what is true for me is true for others. I can only speak for myself
All that matters in the end is that it works for you. So keep at it!Sorry, I can only speak from my experience and what I said is true for me!!!
Assumptions are that other aspects are equal, so like q-14 is 1x and pvs-14 is 1x ... the FOV is slightly different and that does matter. And it did take some getting used to ... but all that aside ... after 3 months of steady use I now have the same confidence ... PROVIDED the thermal conditions are good enough, which around here is about 95% of the time.
I do take both when I go out.
I cannot say that what is true for me is true for others. I can only speak for myself
I really enjoy dual PVS 14's so much I use them even when I don't have to, like navigating around my two hunting clubs, where I know the ground well and have been going to or from deer stands and duck blinds in the dark for a decade and two and a half decades respectively.
Around my clubs I wouldn't be handicapped with just a thermal scanner, but I find the PVS 14's more useful when I'm on unfamiliar ground.
I am going predator hunting tonight after deer hunting and I will try out the helmet mounted HD 19A, which with it's true 1x might be the ticket for an economical helmet mounted set up when used next to but not simultaneously with a PVS 14.
JPK
Around my clubs I wouldn't be handicapped with just a thermal scanner, but I find the PVS 14's more useful when I'm on unfamiliar ground.
I am going predator hunting tonight after deer hunting and I will try out the helmet mounted HD 19A, which with it's true 1x might be the ticket for an economical helmet mounted set up when used next to but not simultaneously with a PVS 14.
JPK
I'm with you JPK, dual tubes is just fantastic in my book. I didn't realize how much more relaxed my eyes are when both are looking through tubes, vs one eye trying to adjust to darkness....
TEXASLAWMAN
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I agree with Oso thermal does not offer the depth perception to move arround like a pvs14 does, I prefer to move walk drive ect with the pvs. Spot and shoot with the thermal. All these things can be done with thermal barring there is no windshield just not as well.
Taco 50 yard detection with pvs sounds funny I can spot deer, and coyotes out a long ways, and hogs even further if they are black.
Taco 50 yard detection with pvs sounds funny I can spot deer, and coyotes out a long ways, and hogs even further if they are black.
Also agree with Oso, JPK and TLM. The thermal does not offer the ability to see through a windshield or the depth perception to navigate. Another advantage with NV is battery consumption is nothing, You can leave it on all night and not worry about changing batteries.
Maybe you have a low performing tube because like TLM I can spot animals a good ways off with NV.
Maybe you have a low performing tube because like TLM I can spot animals a good ways off with NV.
Drift
LSB Member
I love my pvs 14 but...(1) If I'm in the woods far enough to get turned around in the daylight, I'll still get a little lost at night time (2) if it's raining so hard I cant see through my scope or eyeglasses I probably cant see through my pvs14 (3) Depth of view with the PVS14 is short enough that I'm always changing the focus
(4) there is always one more thing to buy with the PVS14 to make it work better
Not that I would sell my PVS14 or anything.
(4) there is always one more thing to buy with the PVS14 to make it work better
Not that I would sell my PVS14 or anything.
wigwamitus
LSB Active Member
I might be outnumbered, but I still have to go with what my eyeballs tell me
In the day time ... with regular olde binoculars ... set up correctly for my eyes ... I really can see depth ... it makes my brain tingle ... I guess the two images are overlapping exactly ... but it is like I could reach out and touch the different layers I can see the layers so clearly.
With dual 14s ... I certainly get more light entering my eyes ... being processed by my brain ... and that is great ... especially for driving ... it does increase confidence as OSO says and that is exactly how I think about it. The confidence to move faster. Hecque ... on most night ... in my pastures ... I can move at daylight speeds with mark I eyeballs ... but not on nights like tonight where it is 100% overcast ... I'd be going a lot slower without at least one 14.
But do I really see the stereo depth thing with dual 14s that I see with regular binoculars in the day time? I should, but I can't swear that i do. I need to pay more attention. I mostly don't wear duals that much, just due to the weight not seeming to be worth it.
With a single 14 on the left eye ... on most nights .. I get some depth of field from the unaided eye. It can see shadows ... it can see major terrain features like treelines and ponds ...
With a single q-14 on the left eye ... on most nights ... I get depth of field from the unaided eye, just like with the pvs14. At this point I don't se a big difference in navigating with one q-14 versus one pvs-14 ... I get the same depth of field either way. Tonight however, it would have to be the PVS-14 to navigate ... with everything covered with snow and even some ice (it was raining hard Sunday night) not much with stand out heat wise. Tonight is a good PVS-14 night. The critters of course will stand out even more, but not the terrain which will be invisible to the thermal tonight.
When I first went out with the q-14 I was disoriented. Read my NV thread. I took some getting used to. But I've been out with the q-14 now about 100 times. And I've driven with it on my 4-wheeler or tractor several dozen times. The FOV was the main issue it was slight less and at first I found myself turning my head from left to right to make sure I wasn't going to bump into something. But somewhere in the past 3-4 months (will be 4 on 2 Jan) I stopped noticing the difference. I adjusted. I believe if the thermal performance is good enough, there is no difference for me. Could I be wrong? Maybe, but I base this on realizing that I know longer think about navigation issues with the q-14, whereas I did at first. I (almost) always take both, but The last several times I went out and navigated with the q-14 and the pvs-14 in my pocket I did not take out the pvs-14.
==
I can see cows with the pvs-14 for sure out to 800yds on the right nights. If I need to see better, I slip on the 3x magnifier on the front of the pvs-14. I focus the pvs-14 and the q-14 at about 80-100yds and don't touch it all night, unless I need to read a book. Oh I can't read a book with the q-14 ... but I can with the pvs-14 !!!
Navigating for miles in the woods can get tough. Especially if you can't see the stars or moon. I have two compasses for those cases!
It is a good point about battery life. I change the batts in my pvs-14s now and then, just in case. I change the batts in my q-14 multiple times per night. I usually have a 10 pack in my pocket ...
In the day time ... with regular olde binoculars ... set up correctly for my eyes ... I really can see depth ... it makes my brain tingle ... I guess the two images are overlapping exactly ... but it is like I could reach out and touch the different layers I can see the layers so clearly.
With dual 14s ... I certainly get more light entering my eyes ... being processed by my brain ... and that is great ... especially for driving ... it does increase confidence as OSO says and that is exactly how I think about it. The confidence to move faster. Hecque ... on most night ... in my pastures ... I can move at daylight speeds with mark I eyeballs ... but not on nights like tonight where it is 100% overcast ... I'd be going a lot slower without at least one 14.
But do I really see the stereo depth thing with dual 14s that I see with regular binoculars in the day time? I should, but I can't swear that i do. I need to pay more attention. I mostly don't wear duals that much, just due to the weight not seeming to be worth it.
With a single 14 on the left eye ... on most nights .. I get some depth of field from the unaided eye. It can see shadows ... it can see major terrain features like treelines and ponds ...
With a single q-14 on the left eye ... on most nights ... I get depth of field from the unaided eye, just like with the pvs14. At this point I don't se a big difference in navigating with one q-14 versus one pvs-14 ... I get the same depth of field either way. Tonight however, it would have to be the PVS-14 to navigate ... with everything covered with snow and even some ice (it was raining hard Sunday night) not much with stand out heat wise. Tonight is a good PVS-14 night. The critters of course will stand out even more, but not the terrain which will be invisible to the thermal tonight.
When I first went out with the q-14 I was disoriented. Read my NV thread. I took some getting used to. But I've been out with the q-14 now about 100 times. And I've driven with it on my 4-wheeler or tractor several dozen times. The FOV was the main issue it was slight less and at first I found myself turning my head from left to right to make sure I wasn't going to bump into something. But somewhere in the past 3-4 months (will be 4 on 2 Jan) I stopped noticing the difference. I adjusted. I believe if the thermal performance is good enough, there is no difference for me. Could I be wrong? Maybe, but I base this on realizing that I know longer think about navigation issues with the q-14, whereas I did at first. I (almost) always take both, but The last several times I went out and navigated with the q-14 and the pvs-14 in my pocket I did not take out the pvs-14.
==
I can see cows with the pvs-14 for sure out to 800yds on the right nights. If I need to see better, I slip on the 3x magnifier on the front of the pvs-14. I focus the pvs-14 and the q-14 at about 80-100yds and don't touch it all night, unless I need to read a book. Oh I can't read a book with the q-14 ... but I can with the pvs-14 !!!
Navigating for miles in the woods can get tough. Especially if you can't see the stars or moon. I have two compasses for those cases!
It is a good point about battery life. I change the batts in my pvs-14s now and then, just in case. I change the batts in my q-14 multiple times per night. I usually have a 10 pack in my pocket
...
theblakester
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I know what you're saying taco. I've been in a tripod blind with a pvs14 scanning and I heard something moving in the brush about 35 yards away but couldn't see anything with the pics-14 except a bunch of tall grass and bushes. Flipped on the IR light and still couldn't see the deer until I caught her eyes. When I looked with the thermal, there was a deer that obviously stood out very clearl walking through brush/tall grass. He just blended in with the brush really well. And it's not like the deer was 3/4 behind cover. Maybe 10-20%. It was also probably a dark night.
On the flip side, I went out a few months ago when I shot that pair of foxes on a full moon and was scanning with my PVs-14 and could see everything with such clarity... But even then, I could find animals so much easier with the thermal. I generally do a fair amount of walking and get to hunt unfamiliar properties halfway often, so my pvs-14 stays. Obvious quality Ir lights and lasers help too.
On the flip side, I went out a few months ago when I shot that pair of foxes on a full moon and was scanning with my PVs-14 and could see everything with such clarity... But even then, I could find animals so much easier with the thermal. I generally do a fair amount of walking and get to hunt unfamiliar properties halfway often, so my pvs-14 stays. Obvious quality Ir lights and lasers help too.