HELP! Purchasing thermals this week and need help

Discussion in 'Night Vision/Thermal' started by Ben1984, Oct 27, 2019.

  1. Ben1984

    Ben1984 New Member

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    This may be a long post. Please read and give me feed back. I f called tons of companies and spent a lot of time watching all of the lone star boars videos and anything I can find. I had it narrowed down and was going to purchase the Apollo 640 50mm clip on, on Monday until I read the comments on YouTube that lone star boars replies too not recommending clip ons. I love the idea of using my normal scope reticle for dope. My goal here is to be able to make positive id and perfect shot placement on coyotes from 50yds to 300-400yds. I’d like to have as clear of an image as possible. I live in southern Illinois and the terrain is flat and rolling hills also so the distances will vary. I have my bullet drops basically memorized for my gun out to 1,000. I shoot a lot. So the thought of having a just a crosshair doesn’t sound great but if it’s the best way to get image and make shots at this range I am willing to compromise. There is no place in my area to go try these products. Price range is anything below $5,300

    With all that said.

    choices in order.
    1. is the clip on Apollo 640 50mm 30hz if it will do everything I’m asking from the sight?

    2. Next is the armasight Zeus 640 75mm 30hz. Lone star bores did this range review and looked pretty good at 200yds. At 300-400 will I be about to id and take a shot?

    3. I have considered the agm anaconda 640 60hz clip on possibly which seems to be about the same as the Apollo.

    4.the pulsar core was something a dealer on Facebook was pushing on me but I couldn’t gather much on it and from all the videos I didn’t feel like pulsar image quality was as good as the others but I could be wrong. I have never looked through one.

    5. open to other suggestions from experienced people with a background.

    follow up questions for the clip ons.
    The Apollo takes up to 8 times zoom in the review he took it to 6x on his viper 1-6x and the image looked good. I’m having trouble understanding how if I optical zoom in on the screen using the clip on but I don’t digital zoom it then it should not disturb the image correct? It will still be in 640 resolution correct?

    Open to any opinions and feed back does not have to be specific to these scopes can be a recommendation of another one or anything you have to offer as info. Thank you for you time. Ben
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2019
  2. Brian Shaffer

    Brian Shaffer Pro Staff Third Coast Thermal SUS VENATOR CLUB LoneStarBoars Supporter

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    If you told a dealer what you told us about your needs and that dealer said you need a Pulsar Core, he was a moron. It is a friggin' 1x scope @ 320 resolution. Basically, it is a 100 yard or less scope. You might be able to push it farther in the right circumstances. It is what I can a barnyard scope. I know a guy that uses one for his barnyard and LOVES IT. He usually doesn't shoot coyote, fox, skunk, etc. over 50 yards. It was the least expensive scope available and it fit his needs perfectly.

    I will tell you like I tell anyone else who wants a clip-on. With one exception, everyone that I know that has used clip-ons has abandoned clip-ons. Despite all the claims of RTZ (return to zero) after taking them off and putting them back on again, sooner or later the user (I assume) gets something slightly wrong and all of a sudden the first shot after placing the scope back on the rifle and he is 4-15 MOA off. Maybe he put the scope in the wrong slot or seated it incorrectly somehow. Maybe he got some grit in the mount. I don't know. I have seen one be off by 15 MOA, literally. As such, I don't take folks hunting with me that use clip-ons until I see them shoot a target before we start hunting. It comes down to trust, but verify.

    Similarly, I don't cotton to people taking off scopes and putting them back on. I hunted with a guy that had different rifle profiles saved in his Pulsar Thermion. We came across some raccoons and so he took it off his hog rifle and put it on his .22 rifle and changed to the .22 profile and proceeding to miss with about 19 of 20 shots.

    The explanation I get from folks is almost the same, every time, "I don't understand why...it didn't work." Often, the excuses come, like, "I must be pulling my shots" or "It is windier than when I zeroed" or "It was warmer when I zeroed."

    AGM is the new kid on the block. I would not want to be a a first adopter, however. Their stuff may be fine or it may be crap. We don't know yet. If you adopt one, then by all means keep us posted here on how it works and give us occasional updates on how well it continues to perform. I understand they have a good image. The question is, will it hold up? Will it lose focus on recoil like their PRG micros did?

    Something a lot of folks don't or won't tell you is that your magnification and resolution of the clip-on setup isn't the power of your day scope. All the day scope is doing for you is magnifying the display of the clip-on and clip-ons are generally only 1x. So you are looking at a coyote at 350 yards with a 1x scope and you magnify the image and you see a very pixelated image. That is reality. You may be able to aim a little more precisely on the pixelated image, but your identification potential doesn't really improve.

    You best bet of the options you list is the Armasight. 300-400 yards is going to be pushing its limits for proper identification of coyotes. You would do better if you want to reliably shoot longer distance to get a 3.5x N-Vision or 4.5x Trijicon.
     
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  3. havoc1300

    havoc1300 LSB Member

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    Might want to look at Flir pts 736.. You can easily ID a coyote at that range... Match your rifle to the power of scope. I'm running a grendel with 95gr bullet seems to do the job for me...
     
  4. Ben1984

    Ben1984 New Member

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    I called Todd this morning and he recommended against the armasight Zeus because of bad customer service which I hear repeatly about how horrible flir customer service is. But the Zeus 3 power 640 50mm 30hz is in my price range. The n vision is what he recommended and looking at reviews it would be the next step up. The issues is the money. I’m not rich but I want to be about to go thermal and be able to make a decadent shot with a decent image. I don’t want to be let down. He also recommended the pulsar but I don’t like the low magnification. So right now it’s between Zeus I guess and the nvision if I can spend that kind of money. The nvision is what I’d like to have. I’d like to go look through a thermal one time and get an idea but there isn’t any shops to do this. So what ever I get I’m going to get it and run it hard during the return period.
     
  5. Rookie

    Rookie LSB Member

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    Buy once, cry once. At $5,300, you are getting close to the top of the line scopes. If it were me, I'd save my money and wait until I could afford what I really want. I started out with the IR Hunter MK3 35mm, hunted with it, saved my pennies, and then upgraded it to the 60mm. That's the best thing about Trijicon, the ability to upgrade without having to buy a completely different scope.
    The MK3 20mm is $5,999, so you're almost there. I'd save for the 35mm at $6,999, but either way, you can upgrade them down the road for the difference in cost between the models.

    https://www.ultimatenightvision.com/IR-Hunter-Upgrade-p/irh-u.htm
     
  6. Rookie

    Rookie LSB Member

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    Another thing, you stated you want as clear of an image as possible. With that in mind, you're really limited to Trijicon and Nvision. I don't have real world experience, but Todd says it's in line with Trijicon, and I trust him.

    I live in Indiana. If you were willing to travel, I could get you behind a Trijicon and a Pulsar Apex.
     
  7. Ben1984

    Ben1984 New Member

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    Thank you both for your responses. Everyone in this community has been very helpful. I ordered nvision halo lr yesterday. I’m excited to get it here and try it out. I may have some questions for you guys again once it comes. I’m concerned with having to nuc it a ton manually. How often will I have to nuc?
     
  8. Rookie

    Rookie LSB Member

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    My experience with Trijicon...

    Turn it on and nuc it. Leave it on until I'm done hunting for the night. I'll typically nuc it a few times the whole night.
     
  9. Robert H

    Robert H LSB Member

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    Pulsar XP 50
     
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  10. Brian Shaffer

    Brian Shaffer Pro Staff Third Coast Thermal SUS VENATOR CLUB LoneStarBoars Supporter

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    Well, the XP50 Trail is no longer being made so it would have to be the Thermion XP50. Decent scope, but the user interface is a little wacky. Operation of the buttons can be difficult (either you press them in the very middle or they don't press) and because you also will be using the roller knob that is located several inches away, you have to keep moving your hand back and forth. While the scope works fine, I actually did not like it because of the user interface. It can be difficult to get comfortable with different scopes, but usually whatever you learn on becomes second nature and poses the least issues if you don't have another framework from which to start.

    The Trijicon IR Hunter is by far the easiest scope to operate. The only drawback to the Trijicons is the fully manual NUC, which is also present on the N-Vision. Trijicon (actually, IR Defense, their predecessor) came of with their scaled down IR Patrol, Reap IR and Snipe IR line of scopes that have a "thumb stick for operation. If you learned thermal on one of these, people didn't mind them, commonly. If you were familiar with other systems, people tended to really dislike the thumbstick and a lot of people sold them off. They just didn't like the user interface.

    With that said, Pulsar is a good company and has the best CS in the business.

    My view on purchases is that if you cry when you buy then you probably didn't make a very good choice. Purchases should be happy events.
     
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  11. Wildfowler

    Wildfowler Mis'sippi SUS VENATOR CLUB

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    It sounds like a clip on would best suit your needs. And if I had to have a clip on the only one I would consider is an LWTS.

    I have no idea what one can actually be purchased for but the list price is 15K so it’s well outside of your budget constraints that you mentioned.

    A buddy of mine has one and you can literally put it on any gun in front of any day scope as long as there is sufficient rail space and it is good to go without doing anything to the thermal.

    For me personally, I could not justify that kind of money for one device as my entry into the thermal world and over the last couple of years have picked up additional scopes instead.

    And my favorite one just got re-nicknamed my “barn scope”. A $2000 Flir pts that resides on my 9 mm A.R. carbine and I would generally limit my shots to around 50 yards.

    I’m just gonna float this idea out there even though it’s not what you said you’re looking for, pulsar makes a really nice 640 resolution system that has a built-in rangefinder and I can personally assure you that it’s capable of resolving and making killing shots on coyote sized animals at 3 to 400 yards as you specified.
     
  12. der Teufel

    der Teufel Livin' the Dream … SUS VENATOR CLUB

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    Would you consider buying something used?
    Some places that rent thermal scopes occasionally sell their rental units. I don't know what the warranty situation would be, but it might be worth investigating.
    I think you can probably find a used IR Hunter/Trijicon MKII 35mm 2.5X magnification unit for under $5K if you look a little.
     
  13. Robert H

    Robert H LSB Member

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    I have a armasight 336 clip on the pro is it magnifies with the daytime scope and not much resolution is lost and you can take it off and on holds zero

    Cons is weight

    I had issues sighting in till I figured out that with daytime optic sighted in you have to use the margin setting in the menu.

    What this means is when you adjust the margin you are moving the screen in the clip on to match the daytime scope.Do not adjust the daytime optic.

    This is for armasight only as far as I know.

    Rlh
     

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