Apollo or Zeus?

fanninland

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I've done some research and looked through the existing threads here. I know that the Apollo is a clip on to be used in front of an optic and the Zeus is a stand alone thermal weapon sight. My question for those of you that have experience with both is, which device is better suited to my style of hunting?

My current setup is a suppressed 6.8 sbr/pvs14/3xmag/eotech. I drive around in a truck or utv (or sometimes walk) with the nvd helmet mounted until I spot hogs. I prefer to then stalk within 30-60 yds, transition the pvs from helmet to weapon and shoot. However, about 25% of the time I am forced to take a longer shot, like if the hog(s) are moving rapidly away, about to enter cover, across a big creek, etc. The longest shot I have made to date with the pvs14/3x is approx 225 yds (thanks TLM for the Primos trigger sticks tip). But I prefer to get close if possible. I also have a tritium/fiber optic Acog (3.5x I think) that I can utilitze behind the Apollo, if that is the best route to go.

It seems my main need (relatively speaking, 1st world problems here) is a thermal unit that can be used to detect and positively identify pigs with (we have a cattle ranch), and then go get'em with the pvs. But it would also be great to have a unit that doubles as a weapon sight, as I also have a 16" 6.8 that I can utilize too.

I realize the W-1000 is an option too, and it is near the top of my list, as it is superb for scouting and perhaps it's only drawback is it's weight when used as a weapon sight. It may well be what is best suited for me. However, in order to run the permutations on this decision tree, I would like to determine which of the two gods would be preferred. Then I can weigh that option (no pun intended) against the W-1000. I am mainly looking at a 320 res unit, as my budget is approx $4k-$5k. My time frame for purchase is within the next week, so I'm eager to hear ya'lls opinions!
 

DaveABQ

Albuquerque, NM
I think the perfect setup would be to have a PVS-14 helmet mounted to drive around. But as we know, it can see well at night, but detection of objects would be further with a thermal, either monocular or scope. So a PVS-14 to drive in the dark, a thermal monocular for scanning and a thermal scope for shooting. I have all 3, but the place I hunt the hogs don't go in the fields much, so the PVS doesn't get a lot of use, except when I have it behind the Eotech to shoot.

As for the Apollo, haven't used one, but I know there is a range of magnification of a scope that they work best with, the guys can comment on that. To me it is extra weight that I wouldn't want to have with a scope and a thermal clip-on, but that's just me. TLM can give his perspective because he has used it some recently.

If you want with a thermal scope, when I was making the decision, I went with size and weight, so I went with the Zeus. The W1000 has a good picture from what I've seen, but looking at it in the thermal comparison thread, no way I would go with it because it is big, short warranty, and limited spares.
 

theblakester

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Do you lose resolution (similar to digital magnification) when putting a thermal clip on like the Apollo behind a magnified day optic?

Btw I'm in a similar position as the op
 

DaveABQ

Albuquerque, NM
Do you lose resolution (similar to digital magnification) when putting a thermal clip on like the Apollo behind a magnified day optic?

Btw I'm in a similar position as the op

Behind? You can't put a thermal behind any optic, it won't work, has to be in front of the optic because of the lens, the thermal is coated with germanium....
 

Brian Shaffer

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When you put it in front, the answer is YES. Basically, it is like holding a magnifying glass up to your TV. It just makes a part of the FOV much bigger. So you want the thermal clip-on to be a high resolution and have an outstanding view screen for your daylight scope to magnify.
 

Afalex1

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I debated this for a fee days too. I haven't used a clip on, but from what o have read it seems like a huge compromise. Added weight and reduced clarity, but able top use a day optic. These days my hunting is 95% at night. I can't justify a clip on versus a designated scope. I'm getting a designated scope.
 

hdfireman

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I agree with what some are saying about reduced resolution of a clip-on but remember you get basically the same thing when you use the digital zoom/mag that the dedicated sights have. Dedicated scope is lighter for sure but clip-on has more versatility being able to go on any rifle and you
can easily pop it off and have a handheld.

Everyone has what they like and don't like but that doesn't mean it is the best or worst. Long as you weight all the pros and cons and purchase what works best for your type of hunting you'll make the right decision.
 

Brian Shaffer

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Right. Glenn Guess uses an Eotech clip-on that he takes off for scanning and clips on for shooting. He using a Holosight with it and it has proven to be a very effective duo for him. He likes the clip-on and off system.
 

TEXASLAWMAN

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I have used the Apollo with the vortex 1-6x and the eotech with 3x they both worked great. I prefer the dedicated scopes over clip on's. But like hd says the clip-on has the bonus of being used as a spotter. The Apollo seems to have the best image 3-4x but is very usable all the way out to the max I have 6x.
 

theblakester

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Thanks guys. My bad Dave I meant in front of day scope, not behind. The main reason I would want a clip on is so that it could double as a spotter without the concern of having issue returning to zero. I wish they made a 336 or 320 clip on with a base optical magnification of 2x. That way a day optic at 1.5x would still for u a 3x zoom for a little better precision without losing too much resolution. That way u could still save on the price point.
 

DaveABQ

Albuquerque, NM
Thanks guys. My bad Dave I meant in front of day scope, not behind. The main reason I would want a clip on is so that it could double as a spotter without the concern of having issue returning to zero. I wish they made a 336 or 320 clip on with a base optical magnification of 2x. That way a day optic at 1.5x would still for u a 3x zoom for a little better precision without losing too much resolution. That way u could still save on the price point.

I figured that's what you meant....

that would be a good thing to use to spot, I hate changing things around though, so I use a thermal monocular for spotting and dedicated scope for shooting...
 

fanninland

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Lots of great opinions/info being posted - sure appreciate it. From what I've gathered a clip on in 640 res is optimal, since once you start magnifying that image you are in effect decreasing your viewed res. Plus it allows for ultimate flexibility - say I want to use it on my .204 Ruger AR with 4-16 Vortex (at lower mag) for coyotes, or heck, just for grins, I could even put a XS Lever Rail, Eotech & clipon on my .450 Marlin 1895 lever action.

Or for a little more than cost of a 640res clip on unit, get both a 320res scope and 320 handheld scanner. Allows you to keep the scope on your dedicated thermal night hunting rig eliminate loss of zero since you do your scanning with handheld. Downside is you lose flexibility of using it on multiple weapons w/o having to re-zero.

I think essentially I just repeated what everybody has already said, but at least by doing so it helps me keep in straight in my brain. I like the flexibility the clip on affords, but going 640res is quite a bit over budget. Any opinions on how a 320res clip on would work in front of a 3.5x Acog? (Likely answer....half as good as a 640?)
 

theblakester

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The resolution would be a little better than 1/2 of this resolution I'm pretty sure.
 

wigwamitus

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I only have used Apollo, not Zeus or Raytheon, but I too have wondered about the answer to the OP's question.

With the WS-1000 running $5,400 on the internet, for some applications, the high end Apollo's and Zeus' might be a bit pricey.

But for me, the key difference between the Apollo and the Zeus, is that the Zeus is available with a 75mm lens. The Apollo can be used as a stand-alone thermal sight and that is actually how I mostly use it. If you are shooting mostly standing-unsupported, or close equivalent, the lightness of the Apollo/Zeus is a plus, over the Raytheon. If you are shooting supported, the Raytheon probably wins on value.

==
As to how far can you shoot with any of these platforms ... well of course "it depends" ... if you are shooting at a "pre-identified" stationary target from a stationary position. then you can shoot at "pixels" ... and any amount of magnification is fine as long as you can distinguish the "target". I've been able to shoot at and hit a pair of handwarmers, side by side at 300yds on a non-optimal night with 9x magnification on the day scope with .308WIN bolt gun prone supported, but that idea doesn't work if shooting at living, moving creatures.

I can't definitively answer the question, but my guess is, that for hog hunting the apollo is best because it is the lighest, for coyote hunting, the zeus, because it is the next lightest but can have 75mm lens and thus give more distance, but for best value, the Raytheon, because we see what TLM can do with it and it is the lowest cost.
 

DaveABQ

Albuquerque, NM
I can't definitively answer the question, but my guess is, that for hog hunting the apollo is best because it is the lighest, for coyote hunting, the zeus, because it is the next lightest but can have 75mm lens and thus give more distance, but for best value, the Raytheon, because we see what TLM can do with it and it is the lowest cost.

not sure your reasoning, when using the Apollo, you have to also use a scope, therefore the total package is not lighter, it is much heavier than using a Zeus...and much heavier and also requires it being on something with long picatinny rails to mount both scope and thermal
 

wigwamitus

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... when using the Apollo, you have to also use a scope ...

My Apollo must be different from the Apollo's you're familiar with. With my Apollo there are 5 different shapes of reticles and four different colors for the reticle to choose from. So if using Apollo without a scope, I turn on the reticle of choice. If using with a scope, I turn off the reticle. For the past couple of months, I have been using the Apollo strictly without a scope, as a stand alone weapon sight. The "total package" is significantly lighter when used without a scope.
 

hdfireman

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Wigwamitus is correct in that you can use most clip-ons in a stand alone mode. When in sight mode most have up to 2x digital magnification.

People talk so much on weight, resolution and magnification when it really boils down to how are you hunting with it. If you're only hunting out to 100 yards or won't use the digital magnification then you're wasting money on 640 systems. If you're shooting out of a stand then who cares about weight but stalking and shooting off hand would be better with a lighter system. If you will only hunt one rifle get a dedicated scope but if you have multiple guns a clip-on is the only way to go. I like the armasight gear and will be putting on on my girlfriends 6.8SBR but there is still nothing on the commercial market that has the detection range of the W-1000. Rant over. Lol.
 

wigwamitus

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Apollo has optional 3x screw on magnifier (I have one) which allows 3x optical magnification when Apollo is used as handheld monocular or as dedicated weapon site. The digital magnification is used on top of that. The digital magnification just makes the pixels larger, it does not make the image more clear, so I only use it when shooting at a target, not to optimize observation. The 3x magnifier helps with observation details, but reduces FOV, standard trade-off.
The WS-1000 is also attractive because the price I see on the "internet" these days is about $5,400 ... so folks like Armasight need to think about their pricing strategy.
 

fanninland

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Apollo has optional 3x screw on magnifier (I have one) which allows 3x optical magnification when Apollo is used as handheld monocular or as dedicated weapon site. The digital magnification is used on top of that. The digital magnification just makes the pixels larger, it does not make the image more clear, so I only use it when shooting at a target, not to optimize observation. The 3x magnifier helps with observation details, but reduces FOV, standard trade-off.
The WS-1000 is also attractive because the price I see on the "internet" these days is about $5,400 ... so folks like Armasight need to think about their pricing strategy.

Wig, I might have missed it somewhere but are you running the 320 or 640 Apollo?
Also, good to know about the 3x mag, as this seems it would come in handy for scanning, or whenever it isn't mounted in front of an optic and some magnification is needed.
 
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