Who has used the heavy duty Military Thermals? How do they compare?

JPK

LSB Active Member
My bud has two OASYS thermals, one is a UTMx a 17 micron handheld/clip on thermal one model iteration from the current model. The other is a UTC, which is also 25 microns and one or two model iterations from current (the current model is the UTCxii, which is 12 microns.)

The view through the UTM is very nice and "smooth," you could look through it for hours without eye fatigue. Compared to my IRD MKII the image was smoother, less contrasty, but performance was similar as far as I could tell - my 35mm MKII is 2.45x, the UTM is 1x. I would say the LWTS, UTM and IRD products all have similar views, with the LWTS and UTM having "smoother" views, the IRD's having slightly more "contrasty" views. All similar in performance though, so the IRD shines for price.

The UTC is a remarkable, specialized clip on. It is useless as a handheld since the screen is tiny. But even with the day scope at 10x (which didn't quite provide a view of the screen which filled the view through the day scope) the view was pretty crisp. Similar at 10x to the MKII or UTM at 2x digital as far a sharpness. Usable with the day scope at 20x. A true long range capable thermal option. We could ID deer vs. raccoon, fox or coyote at well over 1,000 yards. If the marksman was up to it, shooting at that range was well within the UTC's capabilities.

With plenty of deer, a couple of fox, coyotes and raccoons to spot and watch, it was fun comparing the thermals we had along. I had my Pulsar HD 19A and my IRD MKII, I wish I had brought my Pulsar HD50S. My bud had the two OASYS thermals. What was interesting was the detection range differences. The thermals with either day scope magnification or native magnification could detect more critters, even when the resolution was similar and, in the case of the MK II, when the lens was smaller. The 19A could detect deer standing in soybeans to about 900 yards, but struggled with deer standing at the edge of the woods at 600 or so, where the resolution and 1x wouldn't permit separation of the hot spot the deer represented from other not quite so hot spots, like tree trunks. The 640 units didn't have that issue.

Fwiw, there are a couple of UTM's and UTC's similar to the ones my bud had available for sale, with a traceable, legit provenance and bill of sale. IIRC the pricing, it was $7-8k for a UTM, with all of the kit they come with from BAE originally, including Wilcox weapon mount, cords for recorders, etc.

JPK
[Edited to reflect accurate pricing and the model my bud has - only available to LE and Mil]
 
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znztivguy

LSB Member
6k for the UTM seems like a cheap deal...where and who can I contact? With the IR and Visible laser it can double up as an ATPIAL. Sounds like to me there IS a difference to the Military vs. Commercial thermal units out there. At that price point..it would make it a better deal than the IRD products.
 

JPK

LSB Active Member
When I get a chance (hopefully after work tomorrow) I will ask my bud. The UTM's for sale are second hand, used but you wouldn't know it from looking at the one my bud had, no warranty.

The UTM is tempting, but I still want the REAP-IR. With the UTM at $6k I am twitching a bit.

The only difference I have noted between IRD products and rolled out of service - one generation older than current military grade stuff is that all of the military stuff has a really smooth, pleasing view, while the IRD units have a more contrasty view. Detection and ID capabilities seem to be similar, but all of my bud's gear is native 1x, and even my Patrol, which I sold this spring, was about 1.2x or so, so it is hard to compare directly.

The IRD products are 12 micron, the UTM and UTC my bud has are 17 micron. The current military stuff is 12 micron, given the similar performance between the IRD 12 micron and my bud's OASYS 17 micron thermals, I imagine the 12 micron current military OASYS gear is phenomenal.

JPK
 

znztivguy

LSB Member
Asked a buddy who works with Thermals. He informed me that most of the military stuff is still 17 microns, currently updating to 12 microns. Capability between the two are not that different. The difference is in the form factor and the power consumption. The 17 micron is a more mature stable form factor, while the 12 has yet to be proven to be reliable long term. The 12 micron is better for the companies because the yield per wafer is higher, so they get better economies of scale and can bring their costs down. Hence BAE selling their 12 micron chip to IRD. So far the costs have translated to some drop in commercial Thermal prices. Military thermals buffering is far superior than the commercial stuff and the software is simpler to use. Friends with the IRD while gushing about performance, are really unhappy with what they deem is under par support on the software and firmware side.
None of the Commercial thermals have compass or IR laser, Red Laser designation capability, someone can prove me wrong.
Two versions of the oasys...the UTM and UTM-X. Don't think the upgrades are only in the Microns the thermal detector chip is. I think is part what you mentioned the smoothness and stable refresh rate of the field of view.
Thanks for your info... you can PM me to where I can find those second hand UTM's or UTM-X's
 

Jhop

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I like the part where you said the military software is simpler to use. I believe that is because the military wants easy to use reliable equipment. Folks out in the general public want all this gee whiz tech stuff that sounds cool.

I think we'd get better products if the commercial companies would keep things simple and quit trying to cram as many functions as possible into their products. Perhaps a rocker type button to change from white hot to black hot. Couple of knobs to adjust level and gain quickly and a NUC button. Lastly a rocker type magnification button.
 

Oso Grande

LSB Active Member
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I like the part where you said the military software is simpler to use. I believe that is because the military wants easy to use reliable equipment. Folks out in the general public want all this gee whiz tech stuff that sounds cool.

I think we'd get better products if the commercial companies would keep things simple and quit trying to cram as many functions as possible into their products. Perhaps a rocker type button to change from white hot to black hot. Couple of knobs to adjust level and gain quickly and a NUC button. Lastly a rocker type magnification button.
I disagree, too many of us like to tinker and toy with our toys.

However there's keeping it simple and then there's dumbing it down.....
 

hdfireman

Blackstone Arms
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I had an LWTS for years and recently got rid of it for a REAP-IR. I made the decision because I finally realized I did not need a clip-on. I do not regret the switch. The Reap-IR is smaller, lighter, more magnification and from what I have seen so far a better image. Is it as tough as the LWTS, probably not but I take care of my gear so not really worried about it.
 

Jhop

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I get the tinkering with toys thing but how many folks actually shoot pigs with anything other than white/black hot? The only real variations I see in video's are the cross hairs. The cross hairs, I'm sure are personal preference thing, at least they are with me. I'd love to be able to adjust the level/gain and the gray scale on my thermal as quickly as I can with the thermals I work on. You can really fine tune the picture for the current environmental conditions one handed in mere seconds without having to scroll thru menus. I say put all that computing power into quick easy adjustments for the Screen and IR detector outputs. Perhaps the manufactures put fancy names on dumbed down adjustments for guys to be able to tinker with toys.They cost less and sound great, Win,Win. Simple adjustment might make it seem like you're not getting your moneys worth when in actuality it's a much more difficult and expensive task to accomplish. Perhaps even a choice between doing a SANUC or NUC process would be nice as well.
 

Jake

Bandera, Texas
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Hmmm 1 button white/black hot, Nuc button, manual/auto/semi-auto nuc, magnification button, knob to adjust gain and fine tune image one handed. Sounds like you are describing a Pulsar Apex to me! ;) Oh ya and a wireless remote to control it on the forend if u want.
 

JPK

LSB Active Member
Personally, I find the IRD controls really easy to use on my MKII, no complaint from me there - except I would rearrange some more frequently used functions in the menus to eliminate 95% of the need to change menus.

As far as simple goes, a lot of what you ask for, JHop, is built into the Pulsars, the best bang for the $ on the budget end of the spectrum. One knob controls brightness, contrast and variable zoom. One button controls NUC. The need to get into the menus doesn't occur during a hunt.

On micron size, the smaller the spacing the finer the potential detail and the greater the potential resolution. One reason I think the UTCii has replaced the UTC. That application, where a relatively high power day scope is zooming on the screen calls for maximum resolution.

And I'll point out again that there was no discernible difference in performance between the MKII and the UTMx though the lens on the UTMx is much larger (it was a humid night, didn't get the relative humidity though.)

JPK
 

Jhop

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Brightness and contrast are just adjusting the gray scale of the TV tube we look at not the IR detector outputs like level and gain do. They are two different adjustments. Although I do like how the Pulsars look.
 

JPK

LSB Active Member
Fwiw, I don't recall ever seeing any thermal with a true gain adjustment. Any you can name? Or maybe I was mistaking an adjustable gain feature for contrast or brightness,

JPK
 

Jhop

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I don't know of one. Being abe to fine tune the "TV tube" to the best gray scale and the first picture with a level and gan adjustment would be great.
 

AKay

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The LWTS has both gain and brightness controls. How do you determine if it is a "true" gain control? It also has an auto gain control that will adjust both the gain and brightness levels based on the contrast visible in the viewed scene.

The auto gain is nice sense you do not have to change the viewed scene to get the best contrast. My FLIR ps32 requires me to keep a certain amount of the sky in view (or out or view) to get the best contrast or grey scale. Look too high and you lose contrast. Look to low and you lose contrast. None of these issues with the LWTS.
 

Shooter

Bedford, Texas
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and they are the most reliable for mil use.

and mine is for sale as I seldom use it anymore. It is like new.
 

JPK

LSB Active Member
The LWTS has both gain and brightness controls. How do you determine if it is a "true" gain control? It also has an auto gain control that will adjust both the gain and brightness levels based on the contrast visible in the viewed scene.

The auto gain is nice sense you do not have to change the viewed scene to get the best contrast. My FLIR ps32 requires me to keep a certain amount of the sky in view (or out or view) to get the best contrast or grey scale. Look too high and you lose contrast. Look to low and you lose contrast. None of these issues with the LWTS.

I have used an LWTS, and I thought the control was for contrast, not gain. Or, for clarity, I understand the control does not effect the sensor's output, only the "TV screen," as JHop put it.

I'm not sure I see a use for an actual gain control when you have contrast and brightness.

JPK
 

AKay

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The brightness of the screen can be adjusted. When you increase it all values get brighter. You can see the output increase just by shinning the screen on a wall like a flash light. Turn it up and it will produce more light.

The gain button on the LWTS acts like the definition of gain that I found: "Gain leaves your black point alone and shifts the white point up or down".

The definition of contrast I found said: "Contrast...Leaves the midpoint alone. Dark values are made darker and light values are made lighter.

When I change the gain on the LWTS I see the lights changing not the darks.

I can only speak to what I see in the screen. I know nuttin about what the sensor's output is (unless you can measure that by what the screen does).
 

JPK

LSB Active Member
Your definition of gain, and what that control does on the LWTS sounds like a variable polarity function on my IRD ( which I don't think changes sensor outputs.)

Fwiw, the IRD has three functions which effect the view, the six polarity choices - three white and three black - which seem to do what you definition of gain suggests, contrast and brightness.

Hmm, will have to read up on the topic.

JPK
 

znztivguy

LSB Member
I have used my buddy's UTM-X. All I can really say, is that it is smooth with no Eye fatigue. The resolution and clarity is unmatched by most commercial products except maybe the REAP IR that uses the updated 12 micron chip. It kicks my Insight CNVD-T and MTM's ass. The capability to helmet mount, then rifle mount, Flipping to the side with a Wilcox is extraordinary and quick. VISIBLE Red laser is powerful and IR laser takes away the need for more equipment on your rifle. Clip on, or in itself a dedicated weapons optic,it is also very well built and light. Water proof (tried it). Battery life 4-5 hours on 2 CR123's even runs on only one in chamber. With supplementary cable can run with the HUD RED-I's and software is easy to use.

If only it was available readily to civilians. Asked around. Some can be had for 8500-11,000 which puts it at LWTS price. I can honestly give my opinion, that it is a superior product than the LWTS given the overall cheaper price point. Keep in mind that these are for used well maintained units.
Asked through the department and it is still close to 15000 retail brand new.

Will put it up against a Insight CRATOS...and see how they do against each other.

Mind you for day optic I am only going up to 6x-10x. Dedicated thermal Scopes with bigger germanium lenses might give a superior field of view. I know the PAS 13C long range is incredible, and it runs on AA batteries....
 
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